Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3861761 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15500 on: February 19, 2017, 02:29:29 PM »
I'm not 'committed to it' beyond it's effectiveness.
Effectiveness on or in what?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15501 on: February 19, 2017, 02:33:06 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Ha Ha straight in with a Hillside edit.......which is why I counsel reading the whole piece. The section on methodological materialism can be consulted as for a definition there.

I never talk of absolute truth when concerning you guys.

1: Ducking out of commitment to it on your parts although anybody including unknown unknowns in an argument is pretty well committed to the idea of there being one.

Oh dear. This is madness – the only “commitment” is to the possibility of unknown unknowns, not to the actuality of them.

Seriously, why do you keep lying about this?

Quote
2: You allow for the possibility of God and the unfalsifiable although talk of discarding unuseful unfalsifiables on the grounds of unfalsifiability and keeping useful ones on the grounds of utility is logical bollocks.

Well, “allowing for the possibility of” and “unfalsifiable” are pretty much synonyms I’d have thought. The rest of that sentence is incoherent.

Quote
So you're argument is a bit of a straw man Bluey old boy.

That’s curious. As you deal almost entirely in straw men I’d have thought by now you’d be able to recognise when something isn’t a straw man.

Or maybe you’ve just invented the straw man about a straw man?

Kudos!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 03:27:05 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15502 on: February 19, 2017, 02:38:49 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Again cite where I have said the phrase ''absolute truth'' concerning your beliefs.

You told us that your meaning for “philosophical naturalism” is the one in Wiki. Wiki uses that phrase in its definition.

QED

Quote
I will say though that anybody stating that methodological materialism is/gives you a model of reality which is adequate for them is dripping philosophical entailment since the statement is not a methodological naturalistic one, And certainly if adequacy entails using such arguments to discuss God as an inferior to philosophical materialism.

You can say it if you really want to, but it’s still nonsense in a tinfoil hat for reasons that have been explained to you many times now.

If you want other people to take the claim “God” (or leprechauns) seriously, then either find a method to demonstrate it that accords with methodological materialism, or find another method.

Why is this so difficult for you?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15503 on: February 19, 2017, 02:47:10 PM »
Firstly God theories are ignored because of the label God and this is a shallow reason. If you are not guilty of this I assume you would be aware of the philosophies about God.

God theories? In the colloquial sense, or are you suggesting some means of falsification is available? I have read some supposed philosophical arguments for god and found none of them in the least bit convincing.

I have put a link to Christian philosopher Edward Feser and a read of those should give you a primer.

Yes, I read that too - he seems as concerned to sell his book as anything else. The existence of the universe and its laws are difficult to explain - I get that and I get that some scientists make massive philosophical assumptions about what they do - but apart from what appeared to be a reference to divine simplicity (which I find laughable - there's nothing simple about most god concepts) there didn't even seem to be an attempt to explain why anybody should take any god concept seriously.

x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15504 on: February 19, 2017, 02:49:18 PM »
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15505 on: February 19, 2017, 02:55:23 PM »
In the 'lacking evidence' respect - you have partisan claims after the fact from limited sources with vested interests against a complete absence of any sort of corroboration from contemporary impartial sources. Coupled with that you have extraordinary claims that would leave measurable, detectable evidence which is not found.

The differences between them aren't really the point in comparison to the lack of any supporting evidence in favour. There MIGHT be categoric differences between them, but until we actually have some evidence for any of them, we can't determine anything about them in order to determine if there are any categoric differences. What there actually are, are categoric differences in the claims about them.

That which is asserted without any validation can be discarded on the same basis - you've failed to make a sufficient case for Thor, Allah, God, unicorns or Russell's teapot, I therefore don't need to make a case for discarding, you've not met a threshold for me to accept the notion in the first instance.

I'm not sure that anything is not open to question; I exist (though I can't demonstrate that to you) and beyond that everything is provisional - some things are, perhaps, a little less provisional than others, but that's as far as any of us can go.

O.
I feel you have tried to deflect the category question back to consideration of mere unfalsifiability. But it is important.

There is a whole antitheist industry or modus of entertainment/expression based around a ridiculing of all of theism which rides on the back of unfalsifiability.

Apart from revealing the inner redneck there is real social harm to be had here.

The term ''there might be categoric differences'' is disingenuous.

These are either points to take seriously or humourously. If we are to take philosophy seriously we must look to non categorising or generalising.

Carelessness here has led to the following category and logical blunders among seemingly innocent stages.

Atheists find God unfalsifiability.

Atheists find ridiculous things unfalsifiable

Atheists then conclude that all unfalsifiables are ridiculous

Atheists challenged by multiverse

Atheists conclude not all unfalsifiables are ridiculous.

Antitheists still like the ridicule link though.

Antitheists arbitrarily single out which unfalsifiables are ridiculous and include God.

Antitheists take the rise out of theists and mock them on the same bases that homophobes might ridicule say a gay pride march........ based on logical fallacies.

Of course we know we are talking about the FSMers here.

Other than that lapse though Outrider, a fair post. 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 03:05:14 PM by Emergence-The musical »

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15506 on: February 19, 2017, 02:59:24 PM »
In the world.

O.
Yes it has certainly had a big impact both positively and negatively.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15507 on: February 19, 2017, 03:07:30 PM »
Vlad,

You told us that your meaning for “philosophical naturalism” is the one in Wiki. Wiki uses that phrase in its definition.

It is.

How does it help you since any statement on God or the adequacy of methodological materialism to provide a model of reality has as the definition says
''philosophical entailment''. In fact it's even worse for you since the definition for philosophical naturalism includes its equation with ontological naturalism and 'reality' is an ontological issue.

And as you've been told several times before methodology is not ontology.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 03:14:52 PM by Emergence-The musical »

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15508 on: February 19, 2017, 03:15:40 PM »
I feel you have tried to deflect the category question back to consideration of mere unfalsifiability. But it is important.

In what way?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15509 on: February 19, 2017, 03:20:51 PM »
I feel you have tried to deflect the category question back to consideration of mere unfalsifiability.

How can you have a category question about asserted concepts without any means to determine anything categoric? It's not that there's a 'mere' consideration of unfalsifiability about the existence of these things, it's that there's an unfalsifiability about anything to do with them. How can you definitively state that there's a categoric difference between two things that we have no evidence for? You're making assumptions about their natures in the absence of any justification.

Quote
There is a whole antitheist industry or modus of entertainment/expression based around ridiculing all of theism which rides on the back of unfalsifiability.

And there's an entire industry of suppression and denigration from various theist groups at anyone outside of their 'in-group' - hardly surprising, given that religion is used (or perhaps even created purely for) the purposes for determining tribal in- and out-groups.

Neither of which, of course, actually impacts on the validity of the claims. If I laugh at formulations of the idea of god because of their unfalsifiability, that doesn't undermine the fact that they are unfalsifiable claims.

Quote
Apart from revealing the inner redneck there is real social harm to be had here.

As there is in supporting the unsubstantiated claims of religion: terrorism, abstinence-based sex education, ideological wars on certain drugs and over-reliance on others, political interference, gender discrimination, sexuality discrimination...

If there wasn't any social harm here, no-one would have a problem with religion, it would be no more than a personal choice like wearing a hat.

Quote
The term ''there might be categoric differences'' is disingenuous.

Only in the sense that it was giving the benefit of the doubt that any of these claims might have a basis. There is only a categoric difference between God and Russell's teapot if either of them can be shown to exist - otherwise you've just got claims of categoric difference, just like you've only got claims of existence.

Quote
These are either points to take seriously or humourously. If we are to take philosophy seriously we must look to non categorising or generalising.

If anything becomes so serious that you can't laugh at it, at least a little, then it's got a power over you. That's why things are described as 'sacred' in the first place - if you put them beyond question, beyond humour, beyond mockery then they have power. We have to laugh at them, after all...
Quote
... there's real social harm here.

Quote
Atheists find God unfalsifiability.

That doesn't make sense as a statement - I presume you meant 'unfalsifiable'? We aren't the only ones - all agnostics find the notion of god to be unfalsifiable, that's the definition of agnosticism, and many agnostics are theists.

Quote
Atheists find ridiculous things unfalsifiable

Boris Johnson. Donald Trump. Both eminently falsifiable, eminently ridiculous. I think you meant to suggest that atheists find unfalsifiable things ridiculous, in which case I'd accept that I personally (and let's assume I'm representative) find some unfalsifiable things ridiculous, and some claims about unfalsifiable things ridiculous, but not all ridiculous things or claims about ridiculous things.

Quote
Atheists then conclude that all unfalsifiables are ridiculous

Neither in the attempted formulation, nor in what I think you meant, as demonstrated above.

Quote
Atheists challenged by multiverse

Aren't we all challenged by the idea of a multiverse? I don't struggle to accept the concept, I struggle to get my head around all of the possible implications.

Quote
Atheists conclude not all unfalsifiables are ridiculous.

Given that it wasn't a valid claim in the first place, this doesn't come as a surprise.

Quote
Antitheists still like the ridicule link though.

Are antitheists definitively a subset of atheists? What's the criteria? Some of them probably do, it can be useful. Sometimes the best defence is to make it clear that the pretentious sounding waffle being espoused is just multi-syllabic jibberish; Theology is, after all, the Emperor's New Clothes of philosophy.

Quote
Antitheists arbitrarily single out which unfalsifiables are ridiculous and include God.

I think it more likely that those people who find the unfalsifiables relating to God to be ridiculous are subsequently branded anti-theists as an attempt at an ad hominem argument.

Quote
Antitheists take the rise out of theists and mock them on the same bases that homophobes might ridicule say a gay pride march........ based on logical fallacies.

What's the 'logical fallacy' of a gay pride march? Anti-theists mock theists for any number of reasons, from the pretty dresses the Pope wears to the lack of awareness that leads billions to be spent on suppressing sex education in favour of abstinence programmes in the face of the evidence of their ineffectiveness.

Quote
Of course we know we are talking about the FSMers here.

Well at least you've come to the light - it's good to see you've been touched by his noodly appendage (he boiled for our sins, you know. Allegedly.)

Quote
Other than that lapse though Outrider, a fair post.

I think you'll find there might be a categoric error between your claims of  a lapse in my post, and the actuality of my post - but at least we can both agree that there's something there to make the determination on, right?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15510 on: February 19, 2017, 03:43:03 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
It is.

How does it help…

It “helps” me because you asked where you’d referenced absolutism, so I told you: it’s in the source you cited as your definition.   

Quote
…you since any statement on God or the adequacy of methodological materialism to provide a model of reality has as the definition says
''philosophical entailment''.

Blimey, I think you’ve just invented dishonesty squared. What it actually says is:

“Assuming naturalism in working methods is the current paradigm, without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment, called methodological naturalism.[5] The subject matter here is a philosophy of acquiring knowledge based on an assumed paradigm.”

Don’t tell me – you were sharpening your pencil or something, your finger slipped, and you accidentally edited out the, “without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment” bit.

Yeah, that could be it.

Quote
In fact it's even worse for you since the definition for philosophical naturalism includes its equation with ontological naturalism and 'reality' is an ontological issue.

And as you've been told several times before methodology is not ontology.

But the problem here Vladdo is that you’ve consistently shown that you either don’t understand or choose to misrepresent both terms. There is no “even worse”: you crashed and burned using the very source you told us to look at.

Oh, and by the way I see you’ve still made no effort at all to tell us either how you’d demonstrate your claims using methodological materialism or to suggest another method to do the job. In other words, even if you hadn’t crashed and burned and had managed to go nuclear, still you’d have nothing but, “OK I’m guessing, but so are you guys”.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15511 on: February 19, 2017, 03:45:50 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I feel you have tried to deflect the category question back to consideration of mere unfalsifiability. But it is important.

There is a whole antitheist industry or modus of entertainment/expression based around a ridiculing of all of theism which rides on the back of unfalsifiability.

Apart from revealing the inner redneck there is real social harm to be had here.

The term ''there might be categoric differences'' is disingenuous.

These are either points to take seriously or humourously. If we are to take philosophy seriously we must look to non categorising or generalising.

Carelessness here has led to the following category and logical blunders among seemingly innocent stages.

Atheists find God unfalsifiability.

Atheists find ridiculous things unfalsifiable

Atheists then conclude that all unfalsifiables are ridiculous

Atheists challenged by multiverse

Atheists conclude not all unfalsifiables are ridiculous.

Antitheists still like the ridicule link though.

Antitheists arbitrarily single out which unfalsifiables are ridiculous and include God.

Antitheists take the rise out of theists and mock them on the same bases that homophobes might ridicule say a gay pride march........ based on logical fallacies.

Of course we know we are talking about the FSMers here.

Other than that lapse though Outrider, a fair post.

Leaving aside the various straw men there, does it not occur to you that conversations about multiverses and the like are only conjectures or hypotheses? By all means have a "God" conjecture too if you like, but that's all it is at best.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15512 on: February 19, 2017, 03:50:01 PM »
How can you have a category question about asserted concepts without any means to determine anything categoric? It's not that there's a 'mere' consideration of unfalsifiability about the existence of these things, it's that there's an unfalsifiability about anything to do with them. How can you definitively state that there's a categoric difference between two things that we have no evidence for? You're making assumptions about their natures in the absence of any justification.

And there's an entire industry of suppression and denigration from various theist groups at anyone outside of their 'in-group' - hardly surprising, given that religion is used (or perhaps even created purely for) the purposes for determining tribal in- and out-groups.

Neither of which, of course, actually impacts on the validity of the claims. If I laugh at formulations of the idea of god because of their unfalsifiability, that doesn't undermine the fact that they are unfalsifiable claims.

As there is in supporting the unsubstantiated claims of religion: terrorism, abstinence-based sex education, ideological wars on certain drugs and over-reliance on others, political interference, gender discrimination, sexuality discrimination...

If there wasn't any social harm here, no-one would have a problem with religion, it would be no more than a personal choice like wearing a hat.

Only in the sense that it was giving the benefit of the doubt that any of these claims might have a basis. There is only a categoric difference between God and Russell's teapot if either of them can be shown to exist - otherwise you've just got claims of categoric difference, just like you've only got claims of existence.

If anything becomes so serious that you can't laugh at it, at least a little, then it's got a power over you. That's why things are described as 'sacred' in the first place - if you put them beyond question, beyond humour, beyond mockery then they have power. We have to laugh at them, after all...
That doesn't make sense as a statement - I presume you meant 'unfalsifiable'? We aren't the only ones - all agnostics find the notion of god to be unfalsifiable, that's the definition of agnosticism, and many agnostics are theists.

Boris Johnson. Donald Trump. Both eminently falsifiable, eminently ridiculous. I think you meant to suggest that atheists find unfalsifiable things ridiculous, in which case I'd accept that I personally (and let's assume I'm representative) find some unfalsifiable things ridiculous, and some claims about unfalsifiable things ridiculous, but not all ridiculous things or claims about ridiculous things.

Neither in the attempted formulation, nor in what I think you meant, as demonstrated above.

Aren't we all challenged by the idea of a multiverse? I don't struggle to accept the concept, I struggle to get my head around all of the possible implications.

Given that it wasn't a valid claim in the first place, this doesn't come as a surprise.

Are antitheists definitively a subset of atheists? What's the criteria? Some of them probably do, it can be useful. Sometimes the best defence is to make it clear that the pretentious sounding waffle being espoused is just multi-syllabic jibberish; Theology is, after all, the Emperor's New Clothes of philosophy.

I think it more likely that those people who find the unfalsifiables relating to God to be ridiculous are subsequently branded anti-theists as an attempt at an ad hominem argument.

What's the 'logical fallacy' of a gay pride march? Anti-theists mock theists for any number of reasons, from the pretty dresses the Pope wears to the lack of awareness that leads billions to be spent on suppressing sex education in favour of abstinence programmes in the face of the evidence of their ineffectiveness.

Well at least you've come to the light - it's good to see you've been touched by his noodly appendage (he boiled for our sins, you know. Allegedly.)

I think you'll find there might be a categoric error between your claims of  a lapse in my post, and the actuality of my post - but at least we can both agree that there's something there to make the determination on, right?

O.
To focus on my concern. It was around what we discard and what we hang on to....or rather what you discard and hang on to.
Hillside has committed himself to discard those unfalsifiables which he does not find useful.
You discard on the basis of validity.
However in reality neither of you it seems discard the possibility of anything.
Do I have that correct?
Apparent confusion aside, I think both of you have missed an important trick here.
I do not discard theism for the same reasons you don't discard ontological naturalism.....in spite of their unfalsifiability. On the other hand the jury is still out on contingent beings with material properties unicorns, FSMs, Leprechauns etc. and we can treat those in a probabilistic fashion vis Number of Leprechauns declared independent of alcohol in Ireland 0.
I have to say I have respect for physicalist naturalism as one of the great persistent ontologies. indeed as one of the great faiths.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15513 on: February 19, 2017, 03:57:38 PM »
Vlad,

It “helps” me because you asked where you’d referenced absolutism, so I told you: it’s in the source you cited as your definition.   

Blimey, I think you’ve just invented dishonesty squared. What it actually says is:

“Assuming naturalism in working methods is the current paradigm, without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment, called methodological naturalism.[5] The subject matter here is a philosophy of acquiring knowledge based on an assumed paradigm.”

Don’t tell me – you were sharpening your pencil or something, your finger slipped, and you accidentally edited out the, “without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment” bit.

Yeah, that could be it.

But the problem here Vladdo is that you’ve consistently shown that you either don’t understand or choose to misrepresent both terms. There is no “even worse”: you crashed and burned using the very source you told us to look at.

Oh, and by the way I see you’ve still made no effort at all to tell us either how you’d demonstrate your claims using methodological materialism or to suggest another method to do the job. In other words, even if you hadn’t crashed and burned and had managed to go nuclear, still you’d have nothing but, “OK I’m guessing, but so are you guys”.
That's great Hillside you spend a whole afternoon editing the Wikipedia article for your own purposes and then say i'm wrong to quote bits.

And that's what makes you the stripiest, mintiest humbug in the bag.


Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64298
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15514 on: February 19, 2017, 04:01:17 PM »
That's great Hillside you spend a whole afternoon editing the Wikipedia article for your own purposes and then say i'm wrong to quote bits.

And that's what makes you the stripiest, mintiest humbug in the bag.
do you have any evidence that your statement that blue hillside edited the article on Wiki is true?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15515 on: February 19, 2017, 04:02:19 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
To focus on my concern. It was around what we discard and what we hang on to....or rather what you discard and hang on to.
Hillside has committed himself to discard those unfalsifiables which he does not find useful.

You discard on the basis of validity.

However in reality neither of you it seems discard the possibility of anything.

Do I have that correct?

So to be clear: you ask questions and expect answers, but you also refuse to answer questions put to you?

Do I have that correct?

Oh well. Outy can answer for himself, but for my part it depends what you mean by “discard” but essentially yes – I “discard” any claims that cannot be distinguished from just guessing about stuff, but I allow for the possibility that the guess could be correct nonetheless.

Quote
Apparent confusion aside, I think both of you have missed an important trick here.

What confusion?

Quote
I do not discard theism for the same reasons you don't discard ontological naturalism.....in spite of their unfalsifiability. On the other hand the jury is still out on contingent beings with material properties unicorns, FSMs, Leprechauns etc. and we can treat those in a probabilistic fashion vis Number of Leprechauns declared independent of alcohol in Ireland 0.

Another non sequitur.  “Ontological naturalism” is distinguishable by inter-subjective experience from just guessing about stuff. 

Theism on the other hand…

Quote
I have to say I have respect for physicalist naturalism as one of the great persistent ontologies. indeed as one of the great faiths.

Only in your head Vlad, only in your head.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15516 on: February 19, 2017, 04:05:39 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
That's great Hillside you spend a whole afternoon editing the Wikipedia article for your own purposes and then say i'm wrong to quote bits.

And that's what makes you the stripiest, mintiest humbug in the bag.

Why are you lying about that?

You asked me where I got the "absolute" bit from, so I showed you: it's in the source that you referenced for your definition. Would you rather I copied the entire article and then told you to look at para three, line seven or something?

Weird.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15517 on: February 19, 2017, 04:06:08 PM »
Theology is, after all, the Emperor's New Clothes of philosophy.

I would go for a formal debate on that. Fancy the challenge?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15518 on: February 19, 2017, 04:10:51 PM »
do you have any evidence that your statement that blue hillside edited the article on Wiki is true?
I am not accusing him of editing the article ON wiki.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15519 on: February 19, 2017, 04:11:24 PM »
To focus on my concern. It was around what we discard and what we hang on to....or rather what you discard and hang on to. Hillside has committed himself to discard those unfalsifiables which he does not find useful.

You discard on the basis of validity.

I'll perhaps pre-empt you a little, and suggest perceived validity, but in practical terms, yes.

Quote
However in reality neither of you it seems discard the possibility of anything. Do I have that correct?

I don't want to speak for BH - he's better at it than I am, anyway :) - but for me I don't discard the possibility of anything out of hand. There are things that have been definitively disproven - say, LeMarckian inheritance, in its initial formulation - which I'll discard. The lesson there is, of course, that elements of LeMarck's ideas are being found in studies of epigenetics, so even that discarding might be considered provisional to a degree.

In practical terms, though, there are possibilities that I just don't lend any time to, because the ideas are so far outside of what I understand that they just seem preposterous: homeopathy, for instance, I'd fit into that category.

God I'd put in with reiki and chakras - it's possible that they're gross misunderstandings of actual phenomena that have been dressed up with ritual and mysticism over time, but it's just as possible that they're complete fabrications. I'll not spend very much time on them in the general context of life, but if they are for some reason pertinent then I'll be honest: I can't completely dismiss them on the available evidence, but I think the onus remains on the claimant to support them a lot better then they currently are.

Quote
Apparent confusion aside, I think both of you have missed an important trick here. I do not discard theism for the same reasons you don't discard ontological naturalism.....in spite of their unfalsifiability.

In the absence of definitive proof either way, it comes down to some sort of personal 'preference' - me, I prefer evidence, and in the absence of that evidence I'll reserve judgement and fall back on the default position of 'it's on the claimant to make their case'.

It seems as though you fall down on the side of 'a leap of faith' - I've said it before, but to some extent discussions of the 'evidence' for God are a bit of a red herring, because they number of people who believe because of the evidence (or even just what they consider to be evidence) seems to be marginal; people believe, regardless of or in spite of the evidence, so undermining the evidence or demonstrating that it's invalid doesn't really affect them; it's done more as a safeguard for those that follow, so that the reality of the 'evidence' is available.

Quote
On the other hand the jury is still out on contingent beings with material properties unicorns, FSMs, Leprechauns etc. and we can treat those in a probabilistic fashion vis Number of Leprechauns declared independent of alcohol in Ireland 0.

God has material properties, according to some claims; he manifested as an avatar, he created the universe, he alters circumstance in response to incantations. By contrast, there are non-material assertions of unicorns, and the claims that leprechauns are inherently magical gives a 'get out of jail free' card on any material claims, as they can simply rewrite the readings... as could, perhaps, a god.

The problem with attempting to rationalise supernatural claims, isn't the lack of evidence per se, it's the fact that in the absence of any accepted methodology, there are no unfalsifiable claims. Whatever is suggested as evidence that a particular event claimed for God didn't happen can be discounted as 'God made it look that way to test our faith'.

Quote
I have to say I have respect for physicalist naturalism as one of the great persistent ontologies. indeed as one of the great faiths.

Again, whilst I see the parallel, there I'd suggest there's a category error; to accept the findings of science, after the previous successes of the methodology, is not faith, it's trust. Trust is accepting a proposition based on an acknowledged history of prior success, faith is accepting a proposition in the absence of, or even in defiance of, previous events.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15520 on: February 19, 2017, 04:12:23 PM »
I would go for a formal debate on that. Fancy the challenge?

I'd be up for that - might be a slow turnaround in the next couple of weeks, work is busy and the baby's keeping us up at nights, but if you're alright with a slowish pace I'm game :)

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64298
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15521 on: February 19, 2017, 04:16:47 PM »
I am not accusing him of editing the article ON wiki.

then you need to clarify this as that is how  it reads:
'That's great Hillside you spend a whole afternoon editing the Wikipedia article for your own purposes and then say i'm wrong to quote bits.'   Are you using editing and quoting here as synonymous? They aren't



Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15522 on: February 19, 2017, 04:21:19 PM »
I'd be up for that - might be a slow turnaround in the next couple of weeks, work is busy and the baby's keeping us up at nights, but if you're alright with a slowish pace I'm game :)

O.
I didn't know you had a baby, congratulations to you both.
I'm fine with a slowish pace, in fact many don't realise what one has to put in to one of these forums as a ''Village'' theist.
I think we're meant to PM the mods with a proposal and title and proposer and oppose and all that sort of thing.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15523 on: February 19, 2017, 04:27:34 PM »
then you need to clarify this as that is how  it reads:
'That's great Hillside you spend a whole afternoon editing the Wikipedia article for your own purposes and then say i'm wrong to quote bits.'   Are you using editing and quoting here as synonymous? They aren't

I'm more than happy to agree that Hillside did not edit the article on wiki.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64298
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15524 on: February 19, 2017, 04:29:07 PM »
I'm more than happy to agree that Hillside did not edit the article on wiki.
So are you using edit/quote synonymously?