Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3865050 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15850 on: March 09, 2017, 07:50:16 AM »
I chose to believe but I knew I was lying to myself. It is impossible to choose belief.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15851 on: March 09, 2017, 09:58:08 AM »
Rhi,

Quote
I chose to believe but I knew I was lying to myself. It is impossible to choose belief.

I think that's true of faith beliefs specifically, but not as a generalised statement. When, say, a NASA mission sends back unexpected images of a planet I'm quite content to believe that the planet looks that way. With faith beliefs on the other hand, there are too many competing voices expecting me to take their word for it to take any of them seriously.

That people like AB attempt very bad arguments for the favourite beliefs doesn't necessarily mean that they're wrong of course, but it does keep them in the "assertion only" pool along with the Musilms, the Greek god worshippers, the leprechaunists etc.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15852 on: March 09, 2017, 10:59:37 AM »
What a convoluted house of cards you erect, Alan. Now you seem to be saying that there is a deterministic material body controlled by a deterministic spiritual soul controlled by a God who wants us to freely choose a certain path, even though we can only do so by a purely deterministic process. :)

The mind boggles!!
Our soul is NOT controlled by God!  Neither is it controlled by nature.  You have control
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15853 on: March 09, 2017, 11:01:52 AM »
Our soul is NOT controlled by God!  Neither is it controlled by nature.  You have control

I didn't think you understood. Please try to concentrate!

How does this "you" (that has control) work? Does it make choices deterministically?

PS: Please notice that I did not ask if it was controlled by material chains of cause and effect....
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 11:08:18 AM by Some Kind of Stranger »
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15854 on: March 09, 2017, 11:07:57 AM »
It is impossible to choose belief.
I totally agree.  We can't choose what to believe.  The truth is there to be discovered, not to be chosen.

Unfortunately there are many who choose not to accept Jesus as their saviour even though they know Him.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15855 on: March 09, 2017, 11:10:51 AM »
I didn't think you understood. Please try to concentrate!

How does this "you" (that has control) work? Does it make choices deterministically?

PS: Please notice that I did not ask if it was controlled by material chains of cause and effect....
God has given me control.  I do not know how He has done it, but I am able to consciously interact with this world, not just react to it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15856 on: March 09, 2017, 11:13:00 AM »
Unfortunately there are many who choose not to accept Jesus as their saviour even though they know Him.

Really ?  How would you know that ?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15857 on: March 09, 2017, 11:14:46 AM »
I can't freely choose to believe there is a god .....
But you are free to search for evidence of His existence
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15858 on: March 09, 2017, 11:14:57 AM »
God has given me control.  I do not know how He has done it, but I am able to consciously interact with this world, not just react to it.

Do you operate:-
  • Deterministically
  • Deterministically plus some randomness
  • Randomly
  • Don't know
??
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15859 on: March 09, 2017, 11:16:10 AM »
God has given me control.  I do not know how He has done it, but I am able to consciously interact with this world, not just react to it.

And again this is just more of your logical incoherence - how can something be neither A nor not A?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15860 on: March 09, 2017, 11:16:45 AM »
But you are free to search for evidence of His existence
and if we don't find any ?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15861 on: March 09, 2017, 11:17:27 AM »
It isn't possible to KNOW god or Jesus who are only part of a belief system, with no evidence to support their actual existence in reality. I believe Jesus probably did exist 2000 years, but is long dead. Most of what was claimed for him was either highly exaggerated or untrue, imo.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15862 on: March 09, 2017, 11:28:30 AM »
and if we don't find any ?
You are not looking hard enough
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15863 on: March 09, 2017, 11:30:54 AM »
You are not looking hard enough
what about those who used to believe and don't now?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15864 on: March 09, 2017, 11:33:11 AM »
Do you operate:-
  • Deterministically
  • Deterministically plus some randomness
  • Randomly
  • Don't know
??
If I was a robot, I would operate deterministically.  But I am not a robot, and my free will choices are definitely not random.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15865 on: March 09, 2017, 11:34:01 AM »
If I was a robot, I would operate deterministically.  But I am not a robot, and my free will choices are definitely not random.

Why are you evading the question?

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15866 on: March 09, 2017, 11:36:39 AM »
If I was a robot, I would operate deterministically.  But I am not a robot, and my free will choices are definitely not random.

So you are going for not deterministic and not random - which is a logical contradiction. So, the very thing you are trying to use "logical arguments" for, is itself logically contradictory.

Do you not detect a little bit of a problem...?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15867 on: March 09, 2017, 11:40:44 AM »
what about those who used to believe and don't now?
Those who have lost their faith, for whatever reason, are still capable of rediscovering it.  I know some who have.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15868 on: March 09, 2017, 11:45:15 AM »
Those who have lost their faith, for whatever reason, are still capable of rediscovering it.  I know some who have.
and many don't but that isn't the issue. You have described your belief in a way that precludes people losing their belief. But then you don't apply logic to your position.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 11:57:08 AM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15869 on: March 09, 2017, 11:58:21 AM »
You are not looking hard enough
you love the unfalsifiability of your assertions don't you?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15870 on: March 09, 2017, 12:00:27 PM »
You are not looking hard enough

Or maybe a wise person knows when to give up.  After all science was originally conceived, arguably, as the search for god through empirical means, but science has long given up. And if science can find no evidence using the world's most advanced equipment what hope would there be for ordinary citizens ?

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15871 on: March 09, 2017, 12:01:42 PM »
Well, the whole issue of choice, as described by AB, seems confusing.   We don't choose our beliefs, but AB seems to be saying that we can look for evidence for God, but does that mean that I can choose to have the mind-set whereby that becomes interesting or worthwhile?  How do I choose that?   As torridon just said, giving up seems very appealing.

People who lose their faith are also interesting, since presumably they haven't chosen this.   I find AB's approach extremely off-putting, and it makes theism seem absurd and dishonest, but am I choosing those views?  So I could change, and begin to find his ideas riveting?

The same with 'not looking hard enough' - presumably AB thinks that people have a choice as to whether they find this a problem.   Eh? 

They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15872 on: March 09, 2017, 12:07:20 PM »
You are not looking hard enough

Why the silly hide and seek - especially if this god cares and it's important to us to find it?

Then we are expected to give up on logic (#15868) in order to believe in this self-contradictory soul thingy. Why give us the ability to reason, if we need to ignore it?

It doesn't seem like your god is playing fair...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15873 on: March 09, 2017, 12:09:24 PM »
Or maybe a wise person knows when to give up.  After all science was originally conceived, arguably, as the search for god through empirical means, but science has long given up. And if science can find no evidence using the world's most advanced equipment what hope would there be for ordinary citizens ?
But looking at the extremely convoluted ideas about how conscious awareness can arise from material elements (as in one of your recent posts), are you not trying too hard to dismiss the concept of God?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15874 on: March 09, 2017, 12:11:11 PM »
Why the silly hide and seek - especially if this god cares and it's important to us to find it?

Then we are expected to give up on logic (#15868) in order to believe in this self-contradictory soul thingy. Why give us the ability to reason, if we need to ignore it?

It doesn't seem like your god is playing fair...
My ability to reason has led me to discover God.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton