Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

But looking at the extremely convoluted ideas about how conscious awareness can arise from material elements (as in one of your recent posts), are you not trying too hard to dismiss the concept of God?

Hummm... "extremely convoluted" (with evidence), or logically impossible (with no evidence)...

 

[wigginhall]

An honest endeavour to empirically look at consciousness, or a dishonest and contradictory tissue of assertions.   Tough choice, eh?

[Stranger]

My ability to reason has led me to discover God.

But you have just said your idea of a soul is self-contradictory (not deterministic and not random - #15866), so your beliefs are fundamentally unreasonable.

[torridon]

My ability to reason has led me to discover God.

If you have found evidence,  this would be front page news.  Have you published it ? 

[Enki]

Our soul is NOT controlled by God!  Neither is it controlled by nature.  You have control

Alan,
You have already agreed that the will of this 'human soul' of yours  produces its choices deterministically.(Post 15842).

You have also said that that this 'soul' spiritually pushes the appropriate brain cell. So, this is a case of a deterministically controlled entity affecting a material entity which is also deterministically controlled.

And now you say that all this is controlled by 'me', not God and not nature. Then what is 'me' in this scenario? According to your argument it can't be the soul or the material body because both are subject to deterministic processes as you have agreed. so, what is this 'me' that has control, and does it work deterministically or randomly?

[torridon]

But looking at the extremely convoluted ideas about how conscious awareness can arise from material elements (as in one of your recent posts), are you not trying too hard to dismiss the concept of God?

How does that follow ?  Is trying to understand stuff somehow the opposite of searching for god ? Are these two endeavours antithetical to each other ? It seems that way judging from your posts here. 'Searching for God' appears to be simultaneously also a denial of the spirit of curious enquiry.  If it has to be one or the other why would God give us curious questioning minds if to find him means damping down our curiosity about consciousness etc ?

[Alan Burns]

Alan,
You have already agreed that the will of this 'human soul' of yours  produces its choices deterministically.(Post 15842).

You have also said that that this 'soul' spiritually pushes the appropriate brain cell. So, this is a case of a deterministically controlled entity affecting a material entity which is also deterministically controlled.

And now you say that all this is controlled by 'me', not God and not nature. Then what is 'me' in this scenario? According to your argument it can't be the soul or the material body because both are subject to deterministic processes as you have agreed. so, what is this 'me' that has control, and does it work deterministically or randomly?

The spiritual push of the brain cell button is derived from the conscious will of the human soul, so in this sense it is deterministic, but not from physical cause and effect chains.

[Stranger]

The spiritual push of the brain cell button is derived from the conscious will of the human soul, so in this sense it is deterministic, but not from physical cause and effect chains.

Alan, for the ten-thousandth time: "physical" has nothing to do with the logic of the situation. If your soul is deterministic then it's deterministic - and it has just as little (or as much) choice as a physical deterministic system.

The "conscious will of the human soul" is not a third category that can produce events ("spiritual push") that are not determined and not random.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

You are not looking hard enough

But why would we need to search at all? Why not just make his existence clearly known?

People could then chose what sort of relationship they wanted to have.

[wigginhall]

But why would we need to search at all? Why not just make his existence clearly known?

People could then chose what sort of relationship they wanted to have.

But that would frustrate AB's convoluted and dishonest arguments.    This is how God presents himself, according to AB. 

[Rhiannon]

But that would frustrate AB's convoluted and dishonest arguments.    This is how God presents himself, according to AB.

Yes, he's getting a lot of strokes from his god being hidden to all but those with logic and reason, isn't he?

[wigginhall]

Yes, he's getting a lot of strokes from his god being hidden to all but those with logic and reason, isn't he?

Yes, AB is highly favoured, I suppose, since he can use contradiction and dishonesty to show how we can find God.    Hang on a minute, there's something not quite right about that.   Lying for Jesus?

[Rhiannon]

Yes, AB is highly favoured, I suppose, since he can use contradiction and dishonesty to show how we can find God.    Hang on a minute, there's something not quite right about that.   Lying for Jesus?

That's righteous lying.

[floo]

But why would we need to search at all? Why not just make his existence clearly known?

People could then chose what sort of relationship they wanted to have.

That is what I have asked for a very long time, but no one can give a satisfactory answer to that question. If god exists why doesn't make its presence irrefutable, so no one can deny it, especially if the penalty for unbelief is hell?

[Enki]

The spiritual push of the brain cell button is derived from the conscious will of the human soul, so in this sense it is deterministic, but not from physical cause and effect chains.

It really doesn't matter, Alan, as SKoS as patiently explained. Deterministic means deterministic, no matter where it comes from. What you are suggesting is that our decisions are a result of deterministic processes, whatever they may be, which means that a decision made cannot be made in any other way given everything being exactly the same at any precise moment. Your get-out is to suggest that there is a control which you label as 'me' without even bothering to explain what it is that constitutes 'me'.  All we do know is that it cannot be my material body or 'soul' according to you, for reasons which I have already explained.

[Nearly Sane]

My ability to reason has led me to discover God.

Is it fortune cookies all the way down, Alan? Yet again you have ignored a post to just post pabulum? Why?

[Alan Burns]

How does that follow ?  Is trying to understand stuff somehow the opposite of searching for god ? Are these two endeavours antithetical to each other ? It seems that way judging from your posts here. 'Searching for God' appears to be simultaneously also a denial of the spirit of curious enquiry.  If it has to be one or the other why would God give us curious questioning minds if to find him means damping down our curiosity about consciousness etc ?

But trying to explain reality without God appears to mean that all material must have properties of awareness, and our ability to make conscious choice has to be an illusion.

[Sebastian Toe]

You are not looking hard enough

Is that in the same way that you are just not looking hard enough to determine that the truth is in fact that Mohammed got it right and the only true path to God is through Islam?

[Stranger]

But trying to explain reality without God appears to mean that all material must have properties of awareness...

Fallacy of division.

...and our ability to make conscious choice has to be an illusion.

No more (or less) an illusion than if your deterministic 'soul' exists...

[wigginhall]

That's righteous lying.

What an absolute dog's breakfast AB's ideas are.   How could anyone be attracted to such a mish-mash of illogicality and dishonesty?   I've heard of a bonfire of regulations, but this is a bonfire of goal-posts.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, he's getting a lot of strokes from his god being hidden to all but those with logic and reason, isn't he?

But God has revealed Himself by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus.  And I can find no logic or reason to contradict this as a fact.

[ekim]

But God has revealed Himself by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus.  And I can find no logic or reason to contradict this as a fact.

How do you it is a fact as opposed to a belief handed down over the centuries?

[Stranger]

But God has revealed Himself by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus.  And I can find no logic or reason to contradict this as a fact.

Hang on a minute! Before looking for reasons to contradict it, how about the first hint of a grain of a reason to believe it?

As for logic, either (as you can't seem to make up your mind),

• souls are deterministic and there can be no free will from god's point of view, or
• souls are neither deterministic nor random and are logically impossible.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, AB is highly favoured, I suppose, since he can use contradiction and dishonesty to show how we can find God.    Hang on a minute, there's something not quite right about that.   Lying for Jesus?

I can assure you that everything I have posted on this forum is what I believe to be the truth.  So my conscience remains clear on this.  It would seem though that some have misunderstood what I am trying to put across, so I am sorry if I am being a bit too brief or not as clear as I ought to be.

[Nearly Sane]

But God has revealed Himself by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus.  And I can find no logic or reason to contradict this as a fact.

incredulity again. Shifting the burden of proof and begging the question. Given this has already been pointed out to you many tines, why do you dishonestly ignore this?