Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

I can assure you that everything I have posted on this forum is what I believe to be the truth.  So my conscience remains clear on this.  It would seem though that some have misunderstood what I am trying to put across, so I am sorry if I am being a bit to brief or not as clear as I ought to be.

Then don't evade, ignore and misrepresent.

[Nearly Sane]

I can assure you that everything I have posted on this forum is what I believe to be the truth.  So my conscience remains clear on this.  It would seem though that some have misunderstood what I am trying to put across, so I am sorry if I am being a bit to brief or not as clear as I ought to be.

We are back at Etienne's question here. But in addition why does your god let it that it appears that you are lying continually?

[Alan Burns]

Hang on a minute! Before looking for reasons to contradict it, how about the first hint of a grain of a reason to believe it?

As for logic, either (as you can't seem to make up your mind),

• souls are deterministic and there can be no free will from god's point of view, or
• souls are neither deterministic nor random and are logically impossible.

You seem to have a mental block about the ability of the human soul to implement a conscious choice without being shackled by the physical laws of this deterministic universe.

[Nearly Sane]

You seem to have a mental block about the ability of the human soul to implement a conscious choice without being shackled by the physical laws of this deterministic universe.

This is further dishonest misrepresentation and evasion
 Why are you lying?

[Stranger]

You seem to have a mental block about the ability of the human soul to implement a conscious choice without being shackled by the physical laws of this deterministic universe.

Will you please stop repeating the irrelevant drivel about "physical laws of this deterministic universe" and THINK!

Go back and read what has been said - it isn't just my point.

Logically, any event, including any decision or "spiritual push", must be the result of either deterministic or random processes (or a combination). "Conscious choice" is not a third option and the "physical laws of this deterministic universe" have nothing to do with it.

[Alan Burns]

Will you please stop repeating the irrelevant drivel about "physical laws of this deterministic universe" and THINK!

Go back and read what has been said - it isn't just my point.

Logically, any event, including any decision or "spiritual push", must be the result of either deterministic or random processes (or a combination). "Conscious choice" is not a third option and the "physical laws of this deterministic universe" have nothing to do with it.

So can I ask what you surmise to be the ultimate cause of the "irrelevant drivel" you accuse me of making?

[Nearly Sane]

So can I ask what you surmise to be the ultimate cause of the "irrelevant drivel" you accuse me of making?

that you are being dishonest and evading again.

[Maeght]

So can I ask what you surmise to be the ultimate cause of the "irrelevant drivel" you accuse me of making?

Before you ask any questions why don't you answer the one you've been asked Alan?

[Nearly Sane]

Before you ask any questions why don't you answer the one you've been asked Alan?

And let"s note it has been asked multiple tines and Alan has evaded answering it continually.

[Alan Burns]

Before you ask any questions why don't you answer the one you've been asked Alan?

I have tried to answer many questions, but when I am debating against twelve other posters I am sorry that I can't answer everything.  If you can remind me which question you are referring to I will do my best to answer it.

[Stranger]

You seem to have a mental block about the ability of the human soul to implement a conscious choice without being shackled by the physical laws of this deterministic universe.

Let's try a different approach to the same question...

You have been able to consider that conscious minds may be the result of physical processes in the brain - I know you've rejected the idea, but you've at least been able to imagine that conscious minds are made out of something - that they have some internal "mechanisms".

Can you not see that even if you claim that they cannot be made out of physical stuff, that they still need to be made up of something? Consciousness is complicated. Something generates the stream of our internal monologue. All the hopes, fears, motivations, impulses, and all the other things that go into making a person and the "free will" decisions they make, all come about somehow. Even if it's not made up of the activity of neurons, it has to be made up of something.

So, if we could peer into the deepest most basic workings of a soul, would we find it to be deterministic?

[Nearly Sane]

I have tried to answer many questions, but when I am debating against twelve other posters I am sorry that I can't answer everything.  If you can remind me which question you are referring to I will do my best to answer it.

maybe the question that was posed in the post that you evaded by asking the question referred to? You know the one that you have evaded dishonestly multiple times as you do again here?

[ekim]

Will you please stop repeating the irrelevant drivel about "physical laws of this deterministic universe" and THINK!

Go back and read what has been said - it isn't just my point.

Logically, any event, including any decision or "spiritual push", must be the result of either deterministic or random processes (or a combination). "Conscious choice" is not a third option and the "physical laws of this deterministic universe" have nothing to do with it.

I can't remember everything Alan has posted but it may be that what he is getting at is that all events are determined by God, including what the human intellect may think is random.  Human will (or won't) is free to choose to align itself with God's will or be determined by its own self centred drives.  The human needs to be conscious that he has this choice otherwise he will be blindly driven by his self centred desires.

[wigginhall]

I will say one thing, AB is exposing (without meaning to), some of the faultlines and contradictions in theism.   He is busting a gut trying to avoid the view that the soul is part of a deterministic chain, ditto God, I suppose.   God causes stuff, but it's a floaty kind of gauzy cause, not cause as we know it.   You can make it mean anything that you want!

[Maeght]

I can't remember everything Alan has posted but it may be that what he is getting at is that all events are determined by God, including what the human intellect may think is random.  Human will (or won't) is free to choose to align itself with God's will or be determined by its own self centred drives.  The human needs to be conscious that he has this choice otherwise he will be blindly driven by his self centred desires.

How can all events be determined by God yet humans are fee to make a choice?

[Nearly Sane]

I can't remember everything Alan has posted but it may be that what he is getting at is that all events are determined by God, including what the human intellect may think is random.  Human will (or won't) is free to choose to align itself with God's will or be determined by its own self centred drives.  The human needs to be conscious that he has this choice otherwise he will be blindly driven by his self centred desires.

which (a) makes no difference to the question, and (b) he has denied on this thread this afternoon

[Alan Burns]

Let's try a different approach to the same question...

You have been able to consider that conscious minds may be the result of physical processes in the brain - I know you've rejected the idea, but you've at least been able to imagine that conscious minds are made out of something - that they have some internal "mechanisms".

Can you not see that even if you claim that they cannot be made out of physical stuff, that they still need to be made up of something? Consciousness is complicated. Something generates the stream of our internal monologue. All the hopes, fears, motivations, impulses, and all the other things that go into making a person and the "free will" decisions they make, all come about somehow. Even if it's not made up of the activity of neurons, it has to be made up of something.

So, if we could peer into the deepest most basic workings of a soul, would we find it to be deterministic?

I am fully aware that the physical brain is involved with implementing a conscious choice, and there will be memory, natural instincts and preferences involved in helping to influence the outcome of the choice.  But there has to be an ultimate cause and timing for making the choice.  It depends on how far back you can go with cause and effect.  If we are just part of the continuum of this physical universe, then the chains of cause and effect go back to the beginning of time.  My perception of reality indicates that my choice is invoked within my conscious awareness, which I believe to be my spiritual soul.  So for my conscious choices, the chain of cause and effect end in the spiritual awareness of my soul.

So if you disagree with this scenario, where do you believe the ultimate cause of my postings originate from?

[Nearly Sane]

I am fully aware that the physical brain is involved with implementing a conscious choice, and there will be memory, natural instincts and preferences involved in helping to influence the outcome of the choice.  But there has to be an ultimate cause and timing for making the choice.  It depends on how far back you can go with cause and effect.  If we are just part of the continuum of this physical universe, then the chains of cause and effect go back to the beginning of time.  My perception of reality indicates that my choice is invoked within my conscious awareness, which I believe to be my spiritual soul.  So for my conscious choices, the chain of cause and effect end in the spiritual awareness of my soul.

So if you disagree with this scenario, where do you believe the ultimate cause of my postings originate from?

and Alan evades the question dishonestly again. Why do you lie so often?

[floo]

People have different perceptions where religion is concerned. What seems very real to one person doesn't compute with someone else.

 

[wigginhall]

Alan is trying to avoid the horrible idea that the soul (and God) are involved in deterministic links.   No, no, the soul is floaty and gauzy and special, and hangs above mortal life, and is made up of fairies' wings and gossamer stuff, none of this coarse mucky material stuff. 

[Alan Burns]

How can all events be determined by God yet humans are fee to make a choice?

All events are not determined by God.  God has set things in motion to obey natural laws.  I believe He also can manipulate what He has set in motion using His will.  And He has shared this ability to manipulate by giving humans the gift of conscious free will.

[Nearly Sane]

Alan is trying to avoid the horrible idea that the soul (and God) are involved in deterministic links.   No, no, the soul is floaty and gauzy and special, and hangs above mortal life, and is made up of fairies' wings and gossamer stuff, none of this coarse mucky material stuff.

And yet he has had it pointed out to him multiple tines by SKoS that the material/non material split is not important to the question. But he lies about that.

[Stranger]

My perception of reality indicates that my choice is invoked within my conscious awareness, which I believe to be my spiritual soul.  So for my conscious choices, the chain of cause and effect end in the spiritual awareness of my soul.

You've evaded the question again...

The spiritual awareness of a soul is complicated. Something generates the stream of its internal monologue. All the spiritual hopes, fears, motivations, impulses, and all the other things that go into making a spiritual awareness of a soul and the "free will" decisions it makes, all come about somehow. Even if it's not made up of the activity of neurons, it has to be made up of something.

So, if we could peer into the deepest most basic workings of the spiritual awareness of a soul, would we find it to be deterministic?

[Nearly Sane]

All events are not determined by God.  God has set things in motion to obey natural laws.  I believe He also can manipulate what He has set in motion using His will.  And He has shared this ability to manipulate by giving humans the gift of conscious free will.

Maybe instead of whinging about the number of questions you are asked, you should concentrate on the questions you are asked rather than what ekim was asked.

[Alan Burns]

and Alan evades the question dishonestly again. Why do you lie so often?

I have answered the question as honestly as I can, and I fail to see why you constantly accuse me of telling lies.