Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

I have answered the question as honestly as I can, and I fail to see why you constantly accuse me of telling lies.

because you continually evade answering the direct questions, and now appear to be lying about your evasions.

[Stranger]

I have answered the question as honestly as I can...

You didn't answer it at all.

Ultimately you need to face up to the fact that making a "free will" choice can only be done by a complicated entity that has internal processes. Then you need to face the question of whether those processes, and hence the actual "free will" choices, are deterministic.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have answered the question as honestly as I can, and I fail to see why you constantly accuse me of telling lies.

That's because you are dishonest. You post various assertions and arguments that others take the time to falsify. An honest person would address those falsifications with rebuttals of his own or, if none were available, would accept them and change his position. You on the other hand just instead repeat endlessly the same mistakes and idiocies - and that's the dishonesty.   

[Alan Burns]

You've evaded the question again...

The spiritual awareness of a soul is complicated. Something generates the stream of its internal monologue. All the spiritual hopes, fears, motivations, impulses, and all the other things that go into making a spiritual awareness of a soul and the "free will" decisions it makes, all come about somehow. Even if it's not made up of the activity of neurons, it has to be made up of something.

So, if we could peer into the deepest most basic workings of the spiritual awareness of a soul, would we find it to be deterministic?

Yes, there are many things involved, but as I have implied there has to be an ultimate cause, and you have not indicated what you believe to be this ultimate cause for a conscious choice.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, there are many things involved, but as I have implied there has to be an ultimate cause, and you have not indicated what you believe to be this ultimate cause for a conscious choice.

and again Alan dishonestly evades the question.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

That's because you are dishonest. You post various assertions and arguments that others take the time to falsify. An honest person would address those falsifications with rebuttals of his own or, if none were available, would accept them and change his position. You on the other hand just instead repeat endlessly the same mistakes and idiocies - and that's the dishonesty.

They may be looked upon as mistakes and idiocies in your opinion, but I can only repeat that I firmly believe that everything I have posted on this forum is the truth.

[Nearly Sane]

They may be looked upon as mistakes and idiocies in your opinion, but I can only repeat that I firmly believe that everything I have posted on this forum is the truth.

Then why evade direct questions continually?

[Maeght]

I have tried to answer many questions, but when I am debating against twelve other posters I am sorry that I can't answer everything.  If you can remind me which question you are referring to I will do my best to answer it.

You have been asked, amongst other things, how something can be neither pre determined or random. You have answered this by adding additional layers to the process but have still not answered this question.

[ekim]

How can all events be determined by God yet humans are fee to make a choice?

I can only guess here and say that it is to do with a choice of identity.  If the human consciously identifies with 'spirit' then it becomes a case of uniting with the spirit of God or Holy Spirit and going with the flow of events.  If the human consciously identifies with mind and body then he is more likely to fight with the flow and the consciousness becomes submerged in the flow with subconscious reactions.

[Nearly Sane]

I can only guess here and say that it is to do with a choice of identity.  If the human consciously identifies with 'spirit' then it becomes a case of uniting with the spirit of God or Holy Spirit and going with the flow of events.  If the human consciously identifies with mind and body then he is more likely to fight with the flow and the consciousness becomes submerged in the flow with subconscious reactions.

What if the human reads that and doesn't  think it makes any sense.  What does consciously identifying with spirit or mind and body mean, and further what does spirit mean?

[Alan Burns]

You have been asked, amongst other things, how something can be neither pre determined or random. You have answered this by adding additional layers to the process but have still not answered this question.

I have answered by indicating that the free will of the human soul can invoke a conscious choice.  This is not determinism in the physical sense because the cause of the invocation of the choice lies in the spiritual awareness of the soul.  I am not God, so I do not claim to know how the soul invokes a conscious choice. 

So if you think the soul does not invoke a conscious choice, what do you surmise to be the ultimate cause of the choices we make?

[Stranger]

Yes, there are many things involved, but as I have implied there has to be an ultimate cause, and you have not indicated what you believe to be this ultimate cause for a conscious choice.

How about answering my question (I've lost count of the number of times you've evaded it)? Look, forget the brain and the physical universe - just concentrate on the spiritual/soul/conscious awareness thingy that you think so important.

Obviously it must be doing something that is complicated or what's its point? So, it must have internal processes. Now, are those processes deterministic?

[Maeght]

I have answered by indicating that the free will of the human soul can invoke a conscious choice.  This is not determinism in the physical sense because the cause of the invocation of the choice lies in the spiritual awareness of the soul.  I am not God, so I do not claim to know how the soul invokes a conscious choice.

So you have no answer to the question.

So if you think the soul does not invoke a conscious choice, what do you surmise to be the ultimate cause of the choices we make?

Our brain makes choices based on previous experiences and its programming seems the most likely answer to me - based on the evidence to date. Now, I've answered your question - perhaps yopu could try again to answer how something, anything, can be neither random nor predetermined.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

They may be looked upon as mistakes and idiocies in your opinion, but I can only repeat that I firmly believe that everything I have posted on this forum is the truth.

My opinion on your mistakes and idiocies is nether here nor there. What undoes you is reason and logic - when you post the equivalent of 2+2=5 and someone rebuts that with an explanation for why you're wrong, your standard response is to ignore the rebuttal and to repeat the 2+2=5.

How much you "firmly believe" that 2+2=5 matters not a jot - it's still wrong, and moreover it's still dishonest of you just to keep repeating it. 

[Nearly Sane]

I have answered by indicating that the free will of the human soul can invoke a conscious choice.  This is not determinism in the physical sense because the cause of the invocation of the choice lies in the spiritual awareness of the soul.  I am not God, so I do not claim to know how the soul invokes a conscious choice. 

So if you think the soul does not invoke a conscious choice, what do you surmise to be the ultimate cause of the choices we make?

Again why are you misrepresenting the question? The choice is either determined or random, or what?

[Alan Burns]

So you have no answer to the question.

Our brain makes choices based on previous experiences and its programming seems the most likely answer to me - based on the evidence to date. Now, I've answered your question - perhaps yopu could try again to answer how something, anything, can be neither random nor predetermined.

My answer has to be that it is neither random nor predetermined but determined.  In other words it is not defined by what has gone before, but by what the current will of the conscious soul is.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My answer has to be that it is neither random nor pre determined but determined.  In other words it is not defined by what has gone before, but by what the current will of the conscious soul is.

Doesn't work. This "soul" of yours operates either randomly, or consistently by reference to preceding events. Throwing in "current" doesn't get you off the hook at all.

[Nearly Sane]

My answer has to be that it is neither random nor predetermined but determined.  In other words it is not defined by what has gone before, but by what the current will of the conscious soul is.

and how does that 'current will' appear. Is it determined ( note in this context determined/predetermined are synonymous so stop trying linguistic lies) or random? 


ETA You asked earlier why I accuse you of lying, well look at the switch between determinism and predetermined above.

[Stranger]

I have answered by indicating that the free will of the human soul can invoke a conscious choice.

Which isn't an answer to the question.

This is not determinism in the physical sense because the cause of the invocation of the choice lies in the spiritual awareness of the soul.

You weren't asked about determinism in the physical sense.

I am not God, so I do not claim to know how the soul invokes a conscious choice.

At last! Okay, so you don't know.

The problem with that is that you started all this out by saying that a physical explanation for our conscious awareness and "free will" was not possible because of physical determinism and now you are saying you haven't a clue what the alternative is.

Further, there aren't many places for you to go from that. Either you have to ask us to accept an unknown that is illogical (presumably on the basis that it's beyond "human logic" or a "mystery"), which undermines the whole idea of a logical argument for it in the first place. Or you have to accept that "free will" can only be made up of deterministic (and possible random) processes in the soul, which undermines the argument that it can't be physical.

Either way, your whole argument for god on the basis of the necessity of the soul has collapsed in a heap of contradictions...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I am not God, so I do not claim to know how the soul invokes a conscious choice.

And yet you dismiss the most robust explanation we have for consciousness as an emergent property of brains on the grounds that it's not yet "fully understood".

Leaving aside for now the fact that we have robust explanations for many phenomena that are not yet fully understood, how then do you have the brass neck endlessly to assert "soul" when you've just told us that you know nothing about it at all?

[Gordon]

My answer has to be that it is neither random nor predetermined but determined.

This sounds like the fallacy of equivocation, Alan: the 'pre' is redundant so you are trying to redefine 'determined' to create the hook you need for your 'soul'.
 

In other words it is not defined by what has gone before, but by what the current will of the conscious soul is.

So is this 'current will' just random inclination or does it involve reference to immediately prior conditions? Moreover, assuming you attempt an answer, how could you ever know this?

Your 'soul' conjecture is a busted flush, Alan - it is illogical nonsense, and at some point you might realise this for yourself.

[Alan Burns]

Which isn't an answer to the question.

You weren't asked about determinism in the physical sense.

At last! Okay, so you don't know.

The problem with that is that you started all this out by saying that a physical explanation for our conscious awareness and "free will" was not possible because of physical determinism and now you are saying you haven't a clue what the alternative is.

Further, there aren't many places for you to go from that. Either you have to ask us to accept an unknown that is illogical (presumably on the basis that it's beyond "human logic" or a "mystery"), which undermines the whole idea of a logical argument for it in the first place. Or you have to accept that "free will" can only be made up of deterministic (and possible random) processes in the soul, which undermines the argument that it can't be physical.

Either way, your whole argument for god on the basis of the necessity of the soul has collapsed in a heap of contradictions...

So if our souls are not responsible for the generating the content of these posts, we are left with a deterministic chain of events driven by natural uncontrollable forces within our brains.  In your eyes, does the responsibility for the content of my posts lie with these natural unguided forces?  If not, where does the responsibility lie?

[Alan Burns]

How do you it is a fact as opposed to a belief handed down over the centuries?

If you ever discover the love of God through the Christian faith you too will know it as a fact.

[Nearly Sane]

So if our souls are not responsible for the generating the content of these posts, we are left with a deterministic chain of events driven by natural uncontrollable forces within our brains.  In your eyes, does the responsibility for the content of my posts lie with these natural unguided forces?  If not, where does the responsibility lie?

why are you evading an answer? Why are you lying?

[torridon]

But trying to explain reality without God appears to mean that all material must have properties of awareness, and our ability to make conscious choice has to be an illusion.

Broadly speaking, yes, that is right.