Searching for GOD...

[Maeght]

....... it is not an automated sequence of pre determined events, and it is not random.

So what is it then? If things are not determined by previous events then they must be random surely. This is the point you don't address and which is causing so much frustration.

[Stranger]

Value judgements are not purely deterministic.  They need to be driven by active thought processes, and the driver of these thought processes must have conscious awareness as well as the ability to drive - it is not an automated sequence of pre determined events, and it is not random.

So, value judgements are logically impossible.

You keep telling us (without any evidence, I might add) that you are using logic and reasoning but your main conclusion defies all logic.

[Alan Burns]

So what is it then? If things are not determined by previous events then they must be random surely. This is the point you don't address and which is causing so much frustration.

If you continue to think in purely material terms, then I agree it must be deterministic or random.
But if you add the spiritual dimension we have deterministic, random or consciously driven.

Deterministic implies automated, whereas consciously driven is the reality we perceive.

[Rhiannon]

Alan, you ducked me earlier question.

[Nearly Sane]

If you continue to think in purely material terms, then I agree it must be deterministic or random.
But if you add the spiritual dimension we have deterministic, random or consciously driven.

Deterministic implies automated, whereas consciously driven is the reality we perceive.

. No. The spiritual dimension adds precisely nothing. As has been pointed out many times but you lyingly evade that. You still have nothing other than determinism or random!

[Maeght]

If you continue to think in purely material terms, then I agree it must be deterministic or random.
But if you add the spiritual dimension we have deterministic, random or consciously driven.

The spiritual dimension makes no difference to the question.

Deterministic implies automated, whereas consciously driven is the reality we perceive.

Irrelevant to the question being asked.

[Stranger]

If you continue to think in purely material terms, then I agree it must be deterministic or random.

It's got nothing at all to do with "material terms", Alan. Why do you keep misrepresenting the argument like that? It's a sort of lying.

But if you add the spiritual dimension we have deterministic, random or consciously driven.

This is logically impossible because any event, including a conscious choice, has to be determined or not-determined (or a combination) and not-determined means random.

Look this isn't too hard. If we consider and event A, then either there are reasons for it or not. If there is absolutely no reason for it, then it has to be random. If we can identify reasons for it, say X, Y, and Z, then if X, Y, and Z could not have resulted in anything but A, then we have determinism. If X, Y and Z could of resulted in more than one outcome, say A, B, or C, and there are no other factors at all, then the choice between A, B, and C must have been random and we have randomness constrained by determined limits.

There really aren't any other options. Every choice you make is an event that had to come about somehow. Obviously our minds are incredibly complex and for all practical purposes, we choose what we want but that cannot change the fundamental logic.

What is a "free" choice anyway? Is it not a choice that is a true expression of who I am and my current circumstances? And isn't who I am, basically a product of my nature (initial state) and my life experience? I seriously don't see how that can happen unless it's fundamentally deterministic.

Please notice that I didn't mention the physical universe at all.

[Alan Burns]

Alan,

Why when I lost my faith did God leave me feeling betrayed and why did he ignore my prayers to make me feel his presence so I would believe again?

I can't answer your question Rhi, because I do not know.  I could speculate about things not living up to expectations.  To me, God's love came in a way I did not expect and quite honestly bowled me over because I thought I knew all I needed to know - but the truth was that I had no knowledge of His love for me.   All I can advise is that you do not close yourself off completely, keep an open mind and see what might happen.

[Alan Burns]

It's got nothing at all to do with "material terms", Alan. Why do you keep misrepresenting the argument like that? It's a sort of lying.

This is logically impossible because any event, including a conscious choice, has to be determined or not-determined (or a combination) and not-determined means random.

Look this isn't too hard. If we consider and event A, then either there are reasons for it or not. If there is absolutely no reason for it, then it has to be random. If we can identify reasons for it, say X, Y, and Z, then if X, Y, and Z could not have resulted in anything but A, then we have determinism. If X, Y and Z could of resulted in more than one outcome, say A, B, or C, and there are no other factors at all, then the choice between A, B, and C must have been random and we have randomness constrained by determined limits.

There really aren't any other options. Every choice you make is an event that had to come about somehow. Obviously our minds are incredibly complex and for all practical purposes, we choose what we want but that cannot change the fundamental logic.

What is a "free" choice anyway? Is it not a choice that is a true expression of who I am and my current circumstances? And isn't who I am, basically a product of my nature (initial state) and my life experience? I seriously don't see how that can happen unless it's fundamentally deterministic.

Please notice that I didn't mention the physical universe at all.

But you fail to acknowledge that a spiritual soul is in itself free from deterministic control, because it is the controller.  If I (my spiritual soul) am not in control, then I must be fully automated, but the fact that I am typing this message must imply that I am not fully automated - I have the freedom to choose what I type and this freedom comes from the spiritual properties of the human soul.

[Nearly Sane]

But you fail to acknowledge that a spiritual soul is in itself free from deterministic control, because it is the controller.  If I (my spiritual soul) am not in control, then I must be fully automated, but the fact that I am typing this message must imply that I am not fully automated - I have the freedom to choose what I type and this freedom comes from the spiritual properties of the human soul.

Why would anyone acknowledge something that us logically incoherent. It doesn't matter that your unevidenced assertion about a concept you are unable to explain logically has the word spiritua in it. You need to read what people actually write rather than dishonestly evading it.

How do you choose what to write if it isn't determined? How could you possibly make a choice?

[Nearly Sane]

I can't answer your question Rhi, because I do not know.  I could speculate about things not living up to expectations.  To me, God's love came in a way I did not expect and quite honestly bowled me over because I thought I knew all I needed to know - but the truth was that I had no knowledge of His love for me.   All I can advise is that you do not close yourself off completely, keep an open mind and see what might happen.

But your god concept is then logically incoherent. You believe that your god wants to be known buy in this case he doesn't appear. So your god god acts against your concept.

[Stranger]

But you fail to acknowledge that a spiritual soul is in itself free from deterministic control, because it is the controller.

A controller can't do any controlling unless it makes choices and choices are events that either have reasons or not and you're straight back into the logic I outlined before.

Perhaps you'd like to read it and think about it before responding again?

If I (my spiritual soul) am not in control, then I must be fully automated, but the fact that I am typing this message must imply that I am not fully automated - I have the freedom to choose what I type and this freedom comes from the spiritual properties of the human soul.

You are making choices about the words you type and choices are events that either have reasons or not...

[Maeght]

But you fail to acknowledge that a spiritual soul is in itself free from deterministic control, because it is the controller.

Acknowledge? Why would anyone acknowledge anything claimed about something for which there is no evidence?

If I (my spiritual soul) am not in control, then I must be fully automated, but the fact that I am typing this message must imply that I am not fully automated - I have the freedom to choose what I type and this freedom comes from the spiritual properties of the human soul.

And how can that choice be neither random nor predetermined? You can dress it up as much as you like but that is the basic question for which you have no answer it seems.

[Alan Burns]

A controller can't do any controlling unless it makes choices and choices are events that either have reasons or not and you're straight back into the logic I outlined before.

Perhaps you'd like to read it and think about it before responding again?

You are making choices about the words you type and choices are events that either have reasons or not...

The reason derives from the spiritual will of my soul

[Nearly Sane]

The reason derives from the spiritual will of my soul

which is then either determined or random, or some mix of them.

[Maeght]

The reason derives from the spiritual will of my soul

And is that predetermined or random??

[Stranger]

The reason derives from the spiritual will of my soul

And reasons need reasons too (unless they're random).

Look "derives from the spiritual will of my soul" isn't a magic spell that somehow banishes reasoning and logic. Even if you think it is, that completely undermines your repeated assertions that all of this is reasonable and logical.

I can see no evidence from your replies that you even bothered to read my post about this (#16008)...

[Nearly Sane]

And reasons need reasons too (unless they're random).

Look "derives from the spiritual will of my soul" isn't a magic spell that somehow banishes reasoning and logic. Even if you think it is, that completely undermines your repeated assertions that all of this is reasonable and logical.

I can see no evidence from your replies that you even bothered to read my post about this (#16008)...

At times, Alan resembles a bot, any reply appears to ignore the point made and resort to a repetition.

[Alan Burns]

And reasons need reasons too (unless they're random).

Look "derives from the spiritual will of my soul" isn't a magic spell that somehow banishes reasoning and logic. Even if you think it is, that completely undermines your repeated assertions that all of this is reasonable and logical.

I can see no evidence from your replies that you even bothered to read my post about this (#16008)...

I have read and fully understood every one of your posts, but I have to conclude that I am not automated by the deterministic nature of what you deduce to be the truth.  I do not know how the human soul works, but the fact that I am in control of my own thoughts and actions is sufficient evidence for its existence.  Please do not talk yourself out of existence - it is you in control.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Alan,

Why when I lost my faith did God leave me feeling betrayed and why did he ignore my prayers to make me feel his presence so I would believe again?

A couple of questions if I may Rhiannon...

1. What would you say your faith in God was based on?

2. What caused you to lose it?

[SusanDoris]

If anyone is interested, here are my comments on SotS's questions: I never had faith in God, I just believed that it existed as a sort of force or power. Since I did not have faith in it, but always knew it was up to me to run my life, I didn't have a faith to lose, but after living half of my life knowing that said God didn't do anything anyway, I finally erased the remnants of belief that it existed.

[torridon]

I have read and fully understood every one of your posts, but I have to conclude that I am not automated by the deterministic nature of what you deduce to be the truth.  I do not know how the human soul works, but the fact that I am in control of my own thoughts and actions is sufficient evidence for its existence.  Please do not talk yourself out of existence - it is you in control.

Are you really in control of your thoughts ? Ask yourself this - can you really choose which thought to think next ?

[Maeght]

I have read and fully understood every one of your posts, but I have to conclude that I am not automated by the deterministic nature of what you deduce to be the truth.  I do not know how the human soul works, but the fact that I am in control of my own thoughts and actions is sufficient evidence for its existence.  Please do not talk yourself out of existence - it is you in control.

And round and round we go again .....

I dropped out of this sometime back, got drawn back in, but will drop out again because it is pointless and I have much better things to be doing with my time.

[Stranger]

I have read and fully understood every one of your posts, but I have to conclude that I am not automated by the deterministic nature of what you deduce to be the truth.

So what is wrong with the deduction? Either you can see some logical flaw, and are being bizarrely reticent about revealing your insight, or you can't and are willing to abandon logic and reason - which undermines your claim that your conclusion is based on logic and reason.

If you are really reading and understanding, perhaps you could indicate which it is?

I do not know how the human soul works, but the fact that I am in control of my own thoughts and actions is sufficient evidence for its existence.

Your (and my) subjective experience is only evidence that such a subjective experience is being produced by something. It says nothing about what it is and nothing about whether we are actually deterministic or not.

Please do not talk yourself out of existence - it is you in control.

I'm not trying to: I am in control and I do exist. I'm just following logic, reason, and evidence - instead of contradictory, illogical, unevidenced, wishful thinking - as my guide to what I am.

[Alan Burns]

Are you really in control of your thoughts ? Ask yourself this - can you really choose which thought to think next ?

Yes.
That is the point I am trying to get across.  Surely any artist would claim that he is responsible for his own creativity.  The control behind this creativity must originate from somewhere, and I believe it is in the conscious awareness of the human soul, not in the endless chains of uncontrollable cause and effect.