Searching for GOD...

[SqueakyVoice]

The Alan Burns looks to be just acting out the deterministic events programmed in its brain from instinct and learnt experience, but It shows no evidence of having the capacity to override these deterministic actions.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The orang utan looks to be just acting out the deterministic events programmed in its brain from instinct and learnt experience, but It shows no evidence of having the capacity to override these deterministic actions by using the gift of conscious free will.

Squeaky beat me to it. Moreover, on what possible basis do you presume to know what is or isn't going on in the mind of the orang utan?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Squeaky beat me to it. On what possible basis do you presume to know what is or isn't going on in the mind of the orang utan?

I could ask the same question of you, since you used it to illustrate its similarity to human consciousness.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I could ask the same question of you, since you used it to illustrate its similarity to human consciousness.

Your claim is that (non-human) animals are "dumb", reactive creatures whereas humans are not. Human consciousness includes characteristics such as abstract conceptualisation, forward planning and deferred reward, and testing and modification. The orang utan in the video displays all of these things, and shows every sign of being conscious in any meaningful sense of the word. Your only way out of that would be to re-define consciousness to exclude the orang utan in such an idiosyncratic way that even you would blush at the attempt.

I notice incidentally that as ever you just ignore the Replies that undo you - in this case 16046 and 16048. Why is that?

[Stranger]

Your only way out of that would be to re-define consciousness to exclude the orang utan in such an idiosyncratic way that even you would blush at the attempt.

Errr, this is the guy who has already proposed a self-contradictory description of how a consciousness works. You really think he'd blush at adding some arbitrary speciesism?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Some,

Errr, this is the guy who has already proposed a self-contradictory description of how a consciousness works. You really think he'd blush at adding some arbitrary speciesism?

Yeah, I guess - he's been caught out so often now and just carried on as if nothing had happened that he must be officially un-embarrassable.

Oh well.

[floo]

Floo,

Fyi, here's an example of what AB calls a "dumb" animal in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snl4U8HPdtQ

The conceptualising of the result, the forward planning, the skilled execution etc are quite remarkable - only according to AB this orang utan isn't conscious, s/he is just "perceiving".

WOW, if there was any need to prove that animals have intelligence that film says it all.  Humans are only a species of ape, which over millions of years have developed into the beings we are now. I bet it took a long while before we even got to the level of that orang-utan.

[SusanDoris]

Could someone please give a brief description of what happens in the film? I tried to see it, but not possible.

[ekim]

It tied the ends of a blanket to the sides of the cage it was in and made itself a hammock to lie in.

[Nearly Sane]

More just 'reaction'



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/viral-video/11306466/Watch-Monkey-saves-dying-friend-at-train-station-in-India.html

[floo]

More just 'reaction'



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/viral-video/11306466/Watch-Monkey-saves-dying-friend-at-train-station-in-India.html

Incredible, that takes a good level of intelligence, some humans wouldn't show the knowhow the monkey portrayed.

[ekim]

That was impressive.  It just goes to show that the monkey has a soul.

[Enki]

To recognise the amazing gift our creator has given us - to enable our own species to be creative, and to enable us to choose our own destiny does in no way undervalue our species.

To not recognise this gift and categorise our species as just a highly developed animal is certainly undervaluing our species.

1) That presupposes the existence of your creator.

2) That presupposes that we have been given a 'gift'.

3) That presupposes that part of the 'gift' we have been given is creativity and seems to assume that it is a 'gift' which has not been given to any other species.

4) That presupposes that we have been given the 'gift' of being able to choose our own destiny, which therefore assumes some sort of 'free will' by means of our 'conscious control' despite you being unwilling or unable to produce any logical argument to support a third way which distinguishes between determined and non determined. And, furthermore, you are happy  to accept that the choices offered are deterministically produced by your 'soul', which seems to suggest that this 'soul' of yours does not use its 'conscious awareness' at all. 

That's an awful lot of confusing presuppositions and assumptions there, Alan.

[SusanDoris]

It tied the ends of a blanket to the sides of the cage it was in and made itself a hammock to lie in.

Thank you! When you say 'tied', could you see that it made a knot? If so, then that really is amazing. I wonder if it could have watched a person doing that and copied.

[torridon]

Thank you! When you say 'tied', could you see that it made a knot? If so, then that really is amazing. I wonder if it could have watched a person doing that and copied.

He spent four minutes setting his hammock up and getting it right, trying it out, taking it down and adjusting it to suit.  It clearly demonstrates ingenuity, planning, imagination, trial and error and testing.  One only wishes that Alan could learn some of these skills   

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Your claim is that (non-human) animals are "dumb", reactive creatures whereas humans are not. Human consciousness includes characteristics such as abstract conceptualisation, forward planning and deferred reward, and testing and modification. The orang utan in the video displays all of these things, and shows every sign of being conscious in any meaningful sense of the word. Your only way out of that would be to re-define consciousness to exclude the orang utan in such an idiosyncratic way that even you would blush at the attempt.

Awareness of our Creator (or conscious denial of our Creator) would be a definitive feature of our conscious awareness.

[Rhiannon]

Awareness of our Creator (or conscious denial of our Creator) would be a definitive feature of our conscious awareness.

And if your god exists you know that animals aren't aware of it how, exactly? And please don't say because they don't go to church.

[Stranger]

Awareness of our Creator (or conscious denial of our Creator) would be a definitive feature of our conscious awareness.

Right, so people who have never heard of your particular notion of god, or those of us who just think it's as silly as all the others, are not conscious...

[Nearly Sane]

Awareness of our Creator (or conscious denial of our Creator) would be a definitive feature of our conscious awareness.

ah the old you lot are all lying, and a shifting the burden of proof, and a begging the question. That's spectacular wrongness, I really think you have set a new benchmark in illogical posts.

[Alan Burns]

Alan,

Why when I lost my faith did God leave me feeling betrayed and why did he ignore my prayers to make me feel his presence so I would believe again?

Rhi,
I just wanted to share some of today's sermon which our priest gave on the subject of the Transfiguration.

Looking at the stained glass windows in the church, we notice the wonderful colour and detail brought out by the bright sunlight.  But from outside these windows look very dull and uninteresting.  And even from inside the church, clouds and darkness can sometimes obscure our view of the beauty of the stained glass.  But the windows are still there, and if we wait, the sun will shine once more to reveal their beauty.  But if we leave the church we will never be able to see the wonderful view of the stained glass unless we return.

When Peter saw Jesus in all His glory on the top of the mountain, he wanted to pitch up a tent and stay there, but Jesus told him that he must leave the mountain and return to the plains of ordinary life.

We get glimpses of what heaven might be like, but we have to remind ourselves that we are not there yet.

[Nearly Sane]

Rhi,
I just wanted to share some of today's sermon which our priest gave on the subject of the Transfiguration.

Looking at the stained glass windows in the church, we notice the wonderful colour and detail brought out by the bright sunlight.  But from outside these windows look very dull and uninteresting.  And even from inside the church, clouds and darkness can sometimes obscure our view of the beauty of the stained glass.  But the windows are still there, and if we wait, the sun will shine once more to reveal their beauty.  But if we leave the church building we will never be able to see the wonderful view of the stained glass unless we return.

When Peter saw Jesus in all His glory on the top of the mountain, he wanted to pitch up a tent and stay there, but Jesus told him that he needs to leave the mountain and return to the plains of ordinary life.

We get glimpses of what heaven might be like, but we have to remind ourselves that we are not there yet.

Why did you write something that is a complete non sequitur to the question asked?

[Alan Burns]

Why did you write something that is a complete non sequitur to the question asked?

I am sure Rhi will understand the significance.

[Nearly Sane]

I am sure Rhi will understand the significance.

I am sure she will too, it means that you belittled a question and posted an irrelevant maunder.

[Alan Burns]

Right, so people who have never heard of your particular notion of god, or those of us who just think it's as silly as all the others, are not conscious...

I think there is plenty of evidence on this forum that people are either aware of a Creator or in conscious denial of His existence.

[Nearly Sane]

I think there is plenty of evidence on this forum that people are either aware of a Creator or in conscious denial of His existence.

So all the non believers in your god are lying. Way to go.