Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3878594 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16225 on: March 25, 2017, 01:54:21 PM »
Sword,

Quote
Wow, you are getting desperate!!

This is just one big euphemism for "Alan Burns disagrees with you and you cannot get him to see things your way"

Your own mathematical analogy has exposed the flaw in your position, namely assuming your position as true. So where's your so-called logic now?

I genuinely don’t know how to make this any simpler for you.

1. There are things called logical fallacies – if you type that term into Wiki you’ll see a list of them

2. AB, you and others attempt arguments that match exactly the structures of various of those fallacies

3. That means that those arguments are wrong without further consideration.

Your only ways out of that are:

1. To claim that AB, you et al do not attempt arguments that are logically false. That’s easy to refute though because they can just be cut & pasted and compared to the definitions each time you do it; or

2. Claim that logically bad arguments don’t matter in any case (essentially AB’s approach when he tells us that logic is just “man-made” as if in some way the outcome of his false argument thereby makes it a good one).

Both in other words are dead ends, but that’s the corner into which you’ve painted yourself.

As you ignored it the first time, I’ll say it again: when one person says the equivalent of 2+2=5 and the other person explains why 2+2≠5, that’s not just a difference of opinion.

Capiche?

Anything?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 02:01:46 PM by bluehillside »
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God

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16226 on: March 25, 2017, 01:57:07 PM »
BHS I wouldn't waste your time and effort trying to make it any simpler for Sword, he still won't get it even if you use baby speak! ;D

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16227 on: March 25, 2017, 02:03:35 PM »
Floo,

Quote
BHS I wouldn't waste your time and effort trying to make it any simpler for Sword, he still won't get it even if you use baby speak! ;D

Call me a cock-eyed optimist, but I live in hope!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16228 on: March 25, 2017, 02:09:24 PM »
Wow, you are getting desperate!!

This is just one big euphemism for "Alan Burns disagrees with you and you cannot get him to see things your way"

Your own mathematical analogy has exposed the flaw in your position, namely assuming your position as true. So where's your so-called logic now?
ah yes bluehillside and his fancy schmancy pants logic being all logically logical all over the place as if that logicy stuff has anything to do with discussions!!! Who needs that logicness thingumyjig when having arguments, that Harris total dude was one seriously screwed up Greek bozo with his logics and such. Down with this sort of thing!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16229 on: March 25, 2017, 02:19:19 PM »
NS,

Quote
ah yes bluehillside and his fancy schmancy pants logic being all logically logical all over the place as if that logicy stuff has anything to do with discussions!!! Who needs that logicness thingumyjig when having arguments, that Harris total dude was one seriously screwed up Greek bozo with his logics and such. Down with this sort of thing!

Harris Tottle presumably? Mind you, that Socrates was something else in the '82 World Cup wasn't he?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 02:21:46 PM by bluehillside »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16230 on: March 25, 2017, 02:23:37 PM »
You know, I am finding that an unexpected consequence of reading Sots's posts is that it makes Vlad's  sound better! :D
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16231 on: March 25, 2017, 02:26:53 PM »
ah yes bluehillside and his fancy schmancy pants logic being all logically logical all over the place as if that logicy stuff has anything to do with discussions!!! Who needs that logicness thingumyjig when having arguments, that Harris total dude was one seriously screwed up Greek bozo with his logics and such. Down with this sort of thing!
Hillside has been using logic?........when was this?
It looked like rhetoric to me.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16232 on: March 25, 2017, 02:30:18 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Hillside has been using logic?........when was this?
It looked like rhetoric to me.

And that perhaps is your problem.

Well, that and the honesty thing of course.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16233 on: March 25, 2017, 02:31:00 PM »
NS,

Harris Tottle presumably? Mind you, that Socrates was something else in the '82 World Cup wasn't he?

Old So Crates was a delight, Harris could be nippy though if he didn't get his way. I remember one night when he had Platopus pinned against the wall, banging his head off it, and shouting 'See that's real, that wall, stuff you and your forms!' Took me and Nick O'Machen ages to calm him down

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16234 on: March 25, 2017, 02:31:57 PM »
Hillside has been using logic?........when was this?
It looked like rhetoric to me.
Ah a false dichotomy!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16235 on: March 28, 2017, 10:08:14 AM »
A phrase from last Sunday's gospel reading - from the man who had been cured of blindness and was being interrogated by the Pharisees, who were trying to prove him to be a liar:

"Why do you keep asking me these questions? Do you want to become his disciples too?"

It brought to mind the way non believers seem to dominate the postings on this Christian thread.  Could it be that they are searching for God without fully realising? 

So for the spiritually blind - Lord that they may see.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16236 on: March 28, 2017, 11:03:36 AM »
AB

Quote
It brought to mind the way non believers seem to dominate the postings on this Christian thread.  Could it be that they are searching for God without fully realising?

Well, strictly speaking anything could be. It seems pretty unlikely though that any of us are "searching or God" given the inability of you (or anyone else) to produce a cogent argument that would demonstrate that there is a god to "search for" in the first place.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16237 on: March 28, 2017, 11:20:23 AM »
As I have asked times without number, and never had a sensible answer, if a god exists why doesn't it make its presence clear to all, instead of making its presence a matter of faith?

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16238 on: March 28, 2017, 11:26:53 AM »
AB

Well, strictly speaking anything could be. It seems pretty unlikely though that any of us are "searching or God" given the inability of you (or anyone else) to produce a cogent argument that would demonstrate that there is a god to "search for" in the first place.
You just need to change gods.  Helios can be seen in the sky during the day (except perhaps in Wales).  He is worshipped by many people who throw off their clothes in veneration but he punishes those who do not anoint themselves in respect.  There are many places of pilgrimage, like Costa del Sol.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16239 on: March 28, 2017, 11:30:30 AM »
You just need to change gods.  Helios can be seen in the sky during the day (except perhaps in Wales).  He is worshipped by many people who throw off their clothes in veneration but he punishes those who do not anoint themselves in respect.  There are many places of pilgrimage, like Costa del Sol.

 :P The last few days have been very sunny and warm here in our part of Wales! :P

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16240 on: March 28, 2017, 03:59:41 PM »
:P The last few days have been very sunny and warm here in our part of Wales! :P
Ah, that's a good sign.  You have to follow this by signing the Helios hymn daily:
"The sun has got his hat on, hip, hip, hip, hooray.
The sun has got his hat on and he's coming out to day."  The Welsh should be good at this and should sing it at all international rugby matches for favourable results.
Be sure not to worship his sister Selene or Luna, the moon goddess though.
Lunatism should be avoided at all times.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16241 on: March 28, 2017, 05:23:19 PM »
Ah, that's a good sign.  You have to follow this by signing the Helios hymn daily:
"The sun has got his hat on, hip, hip, hip, hooray.
The sun has got his hat on and he's coming out to day."  The Welsh should be good at this and should sing it at all international rugby matches for favourable results.
Be sure not to worship his sister Selene or Luna, the moon goddess though.
Lunatism should be avoided at all times.

If I started singing everyone in Wales would take the next space ship to Mars, my singing voice is HORRIBLE!!! :o I am not Welsh, I have just lived here since 1990. 

Robbie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16242 on: March 28, 2017, 06:31:21 PM »
You can still join in floo and keep your hat on if you want.
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16243 on: March 29, 2017, 10:32:46 AM »
A phrase from last Sunday's gospel reading - from the man who had been cured of blindness and was being interrogated by the Pharisees, who were trying to prove him to be a liar:

"Why do you keep asking me these questions? Do you want to become his disciples too?"

It brought to mind the way non believers seem to dominate the postings on this Christian thread.  Could it be that they are searching for God without fully realising? 

So for the spiritually blind - Lord that they may see.

You are really away with the fairies A B, we would like you to get your thinking sorted out and at least admit that there is nothing, other than people like yourself, no reason to think there is any such thing as a god, nada and all you can do is twist and turn in such a way as your words in this last post of yours, you even think you're addressing some unseen agency in the last line of this post of yours.

I respond to your kind of obstinacy, mainly because I don't want you or people like you having the ability to keep on passing on their sad misguided ideas on to our future generations particularly to our youngest and most vulnerable very young children.

You can't be stopped practising these magical, mysterious and superstitious ideas but please do it in your own time with your own finances and at least try to leave future generations of the very young out of your clutches at least until they reach an age where they have acquired the ability to reason for them selves, usually around the age of seven, this 'grab em while they're young' common idea all of the religions share, is my main reason for having so much disdain for all religious orders, you all need to be stopped from performing this very shady practice of indoctrinating the very young and vulnerable with your ideas, ideas that have zero viable evidence to back them up.

ippy
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 10:37:11 AM by ippy »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16244 on: March 30, 2017, 10:52:56 PM »
You are really away with the fairies A B, we would like you to get your thinking sorted out and at least admit that there is nothing, other than people like yourself, no reason to think there is any such thing as a god, nada and all you can do is twist and turn in such a way as your words in this last post of yours, you even think you're addressing some unseen agency in the last line of this post of yours.

I respond to your kind of obstinacy, mainly because I don't want you or people like you having the ability to keep on passing on their sad misguided ideas on to our future generations particularly to our youngest and most vulnerable very young children.

You can't be stopped practising these magical, mysterious and superstitious ideas but please do it in your own time with your own finances and at least try to leave future generations of the very young out of your clutches at least until they reach an age where they have acquired the ability to reason for them selves, usually around the age of seven, this 'grab em while they're young' common idea all of the religions share, is my main reason for having so much disdain for all religious orders, you all need to be stopped from performing this very shady practice of indoctrinating the very young and vulnerable with your ideas, ideas that have zero viable evidence to back them up.

ippy
Dear Ippy,
The strongest Christians I know are those who came to their senses in adulthood to discover the reality of the Christian faith, while many of my so called indoctrinated school friends drifted away from their faith as they grew older.  So I hope and pray that those of you who put their faith in the current wave of optimistic science based theories will one day come to see the truth.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16245 on: March 30, 2017, 11:04:27 PM »
Dear Ippy,
The strongest Christians I know are those who came to their senses in adulthood to discover the reality of the Christian faith, while many of my so called indoctrinated school friends drifted away from their faith as they grew older.  So I hope and pray that those of you who put their faith in the current wave of optimistic science based theories will one day come to see the truth.
what do you think is 'optimistic' about science 'based theories'?

What other methodology do you offer for evaluation of theories? (And note you have been asked for this methodology many times and haven't offered anything, so maybe this time deal with the question?)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16246 on: March 31, 2017, 06:22:08 AM »
Dear Ippy,
The strongest Christians I know are those who came to their senses in adulthood to discover the reality of the Christian faith, while many of my so called indoctrinated school friends drifted away from their faith as they grew older.  So I hope and pray that those of you who put their faith in the current wave of optimistic science based theories will one day come to see the truth.

Science is interesting but it is not about faith; broadly speaking science is about the avoidance of faith through the higher valuing of evidence and reason.  That way we avoid ending up with unjustified beliefs.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16247 on: March 31, 2017, 07:06:11 AM »
Science is interesting but it is not about faith; broadly speaking science is about the avoidance of faith through the higher valuing of evidence and reason.  That way we avoid ending up with unjustified beliefs.
Science carries no statements of value. You are just stating your own beliefs about the value of science and reason.

Nice attempt at a grab though.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16248 on: March 31, 2017, 08:40:36 AM »
what do you think is 'optimistic' about science 'based theories'?

Science can be used to show how material entities react to events.  The optimism comes in assuming that this is sufficient to explain the occurrence of every event which has ever happened.

To illustrate simply, science can correctly predict how a moving billiard ball will react with the other balls on a table, but it can't be used to define the ultimate cause for the trajectory of the moving ball.  Optimism comes in the assumption that the ultimate case is just a chain of scientifically defined cause and effect events tracing back to the big bang with no outside interaction.  If outside interaction is used to explain the cause, then this must come from an event which was induced outside the physical cause and effect chain.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16249 on: March 31, 2017, 09:14:37 AM »
Science can be used to show how material entities react to events.  The optimism comes in assuming that this is sufficient to explain the occurrence of every event which has ever happened.

To illustrate simply, science can correctly predict how a moving billiard ball will react with the other balls on a table, but it can't be used to define the ultimate cause for the trajectory of the moving ball.

Might that be the actions of the cue-wielder?

Quote
Optimism comes in the assumption that the ultimate case is just a chain of scientifically defined cause and effect events tracing back to the big bang with no outside interaction.  If outside interaction is used to explain the cause, then this must come from an event which was induced outside the physical cause and effect chain.

Then you need to explain the 'event which was induced outside the physical cause and effect chain', which doesn't help you. This effort is an example of your usual personal incredulity: why not try a masterly 'don't know'?