Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3906055 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16300 on: April 04, 2017, 03:04:26 PM »
Vlad,

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Those who would prefer the Tosh Hillsidian definition........Look away now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

Ah, the glorious sight of Vlad giving it both barrels…

…in both feet.

The lie you try over and again is that “scientism” means assuming that science will eventually answer everything, whereas as in fact all it means is putting undue weight on the methods and findings of science. As the very link you posted has it: “…the view that empirical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview”.

Genius! Coming soon – Vlad accuses me of thinking that black is white, then posts a link to a site explaining that black is black!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16301 on: April 04, 2017, 03:06:15 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Reply #16283

Which I demolished point-by-pont in 16286. That you just ignored the demolition doesn't make it go away.
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God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16302 on: April 04, 2017, 03:10:24 PM »
Reply #16283

Err, no. You didn't address the point at all.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16303 on: April 04, 2017, 03:14:51 PM »
Vlad,

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No it isn't because things in the universe are explicable by other things and you are claiming that the universe isn't thus undoing your own claims that things in the universe are in the same category as the universe itself.

Such deep, deep stupidity. The analogy had nothing to do with its objects – whether thunder or the universe matters not a jot. The point was you cannot just take the absence of an explanation (for anything) as license to assert an alternative explanation that itself suffers the same explanatory deficit. 

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............To be honest i'm beginning to feel i'm taking advantage of the intellectually challenged by coming on this forum.

And such deep, deep irony to follow. Good effort!

Google "Dunning Kruger effect"– it describes your mistake here very well.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 03:31:27 PM by bluehillside »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16304 on: April 04, 2017, 03:16:50 PM »
Some,

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Err, no. You didn't address the point at all.

He never does, and - if I were a betting man - I'd say he never will.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 03:23:46 PM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16305 on: April 04, 2017, 05:04:48 PM »
Vlad,

Such deep, deep stupidity. The analogy had nothing to do with its objects – whether thunder or the universe matters not a jot. The point was you cannot just take the absence of an explanation (for anything) as license to assert an alternative explanation that itself suffers the same explanatory deficit. 

And such deep, deep irony to follow. Good effort!

Google "Dunning Kruger effect"– it describes your mistake here very well.
Hush, what's that? The sound of barrels being scraped....yesturday appeal to FSTDT........Turday.... Appeal to Dunning Kruger.

Nobody is saying that science does not have an explanatory deficit in these matters are they?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 05:16:17 PM by Emergence-The musical »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16306 on: April 04, 2017, 05:11:27 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Hush, what's that? The sound of barrels being scraped....yesturdat appeal to FSTDT........Turdat.... Appeal to Dunning Kruger.

Nobody is saying that science does not have an explanatory deficit in these matters are they?

Take a deep breath, wrap the wet towel round your head and try veeeeeery slowly to type a coherent thought. What are you even trying to say here?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16307 on: April 04, 2017, 05:12:56 PM »
Vlad,

Take a deep breath, wrap the wet towel round your head and try veeeeeery slowly to type a coherent thought. What are you even trying to say here?
You are scraping barrels Hillside.....clear enough for you?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16308 on: April 04, 2017, 05:24:06 PM »
Vlad,

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You are scraping barrels Hillside.....clear enough for you?

Perfectly. It was the alphabet soup of a sentence that followed that wasn't.

Now then, how exactly in your head is identifying your mistakes and demonstrating your lying "scraping the barrel"?

Look, it would be easy enough at least in principle for you to get yourself off the hook here. When asked why you think adding another assumption ("God") which provides the identical answers to those provided by "the universe" about "popping out of nothing", "eternally there" etc actually explains anything, rather than just ignore the question or lie about having answered it already why not finally address the elephant in the room that undoes you?   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16309 on: April 04, 2017, 05:27:18 PM »
Err, no. You didn't address the point at all.
First of all, Many Antitheists feel they are the only ones who can admit they don't know.
So therefore ''I don't know what created the universe'' becomes a noble and couragous reply.

Why then is ''I don't know what created God?'' such a no-no.
That was the jist of the reply. Therefore the point about a theist response to a favourite atheist objection is addressed.

That atheists start to cry and want their mummies when theists say ''I don't know what created God'' but see it as a cause celebre if an atheist says ''I don't know what created the universe'' is special pleading.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16310 on: April 04, 2017, 05:34:51 PM »
Err, no. You didn't address the point at all.
Yes I did. I mentioned the notion that a theist answer to who created God could be  ''I don't know''. How is that any less noble or, let's face it, different, than an atheist ''I don't know what created the universe''?

I raised it to further underline ''antitheist special pleading''.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16311 on: April 04, 2017, 05:38:22 PM »
Vlad,

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First of all,…

No, first of all you claimed to have answered a question already when you’d done no such thing. Stop lying.

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Many Antitheists feel they are the only ones who can admit they don't know.

It’s got nothing to do with “antitheists” (a term you routinely use when you actually mean “atheists” by the way). People who do science routinely arrive at a “don’t know” when their knowledge runs out. That’s why people do science – to find out more.

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So therefore…

Non sequitur

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''I don't know what created the universe'' becomes a noble and couragous reply.

No, just honest. You should try the same approach.

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Why then is ''I don't know what created God?'' such a no-no.

It isn’t. It’s just that adding the assumption “God” takes you no further than the “don’t know” already arrived at when considering the universe.

That is, "God" explains nothing,

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That was the jist of the reply. Therefore the point about a theist response to a favourite atheist objection is addressed.

It’s “gist”, and no it isn’t. The question (yet again) concerns why you think that adding an assumption that itself arrives at the same “don’t know” we’re already at adds anything of explanatory force.

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That atheists start to cry and want their mummies when theists say ''I don't know what created God'' but see it as a cause celebre if an atheist says ''I don't know what created the universe'' is special pleading.

No – that’s yet another of your straw men, and the only special pleading would be claiming “it’s magic innit” for god and denying it for the universe.

Have you any idea at all how far out of your depth you are here?

Anything?
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16312 on: April 04, 2017, 05:40:14 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Yes I did. I mentioned the notion that a theist answer to who created God could be  ''I don't know''. How is that any less noble or, let's face it, different, than an atheist ''I don't know what created the universe''?

I raised it to further underline ''antitheist special pleading''.

No you didn’t because that’s not the question. Stop lying.
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God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16313 on: April 04, 2017, 05:57:06 PM »
First of all, Many Antitheists feel they are the only ones who can admit they don't know.
So therefore ''I don't know what created the universe'' becomes a noble and couragous reply.

Why then is ''I don't know what created God?'' such a no-no.
That was the jist of the reply. Therefore the point about a theist response to a favourite atheist objection is addressed.

That atheists start to cry and want their mummies when theists say ''I don't know what created God'' but see it as a cause celebre if an atheist says ''I don't know what created the universe'' is special pleading.

As usual you are missing the point. It's perfectly OK to say that you don't know the answer to anything. However, if you posit a god on the basis that you want an answer to why the universe exists - but then just say you don't know why god exists - you have explained nothing - except in a banal just-so story way.

As I said before: gods are a baseless guess that gets us nowhere.

And it isn't special pleading - there is a distinct difference between the universe and gods: we have plenty of evidence that the universe exists.
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SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16314 on: April 04, 2017, 06:07:37 PM »
As usual you are missing the point. It's perfectly OK to say that you don't know the answer to anything. However, if you posit a god on the basis that you want an answer to why the universe exists - but then just say you don't know why god exists - you have explained nothing - except in a banal just-so story way.

As I said before: gods are a baseless guess that gets us nowhere.

And it isn't special pleading - there is a distinct difference between the universe and gods: we have plenty of evidence that the universe exists.
Is the truth (or otherwise) of the statement "God created the universe" affected by knowing why God exists?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16315 on: April 04, 2017, 06:19:06 PM »
Is the truth (or otherwise) of the statement "God created the universe" affected by knowing why God exists?

No.
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Robbie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16316 on: April 04, 2017, 06:24:31 PM »
Just wanted to say I don't think Alan is lying at all. He genuinely believes what he says to be true. He does occasionally misrepresent other posters views but this is just as likely to be due to a genuine misunderstanding than anything else.

Quite agree Maeght. To lie you have to believe you are genuinely misrepresenting & from what I have read, Alan doesn't do that.
It's all a matter of opinion.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16317 on: April 04, 2017, 06:51:24 PM »
Sword,

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Is the truth (or otherwise) of the statement "God created the universe" affected by knowing why God exists?

No. Is the truth (or otherwise) of the statement "the universe could exist without a god" affected by knowing why the universe exists?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 06:58:01 PM by bluehillside »
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16318 on: April 04, 2017, 07:09:48 PM »
Is the truth (or otherwise) of the statement "God created the universe" affected by knowing why God exists?

Your use of 'why' is odd, since it packs more of a punch than using 'that', since 'why' implies some purpose in there being a God (hypothetically speaking) - so from where does this pre-God purpose arise?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16319 on: April 05, 2017, 06:28:44 AM »
No. What is going on is that you are arguing that there is just one ''stuff''. The evidence is your first point ''The existence of stuff is unexplained''.
That there is one stuff and not two is a philosophical position which does not establish necessity.....which is what Ockhams razor is based on.

I think you'll find that the argument for God is that there are two ''stuffs''. If you cannot handle this this is because you are stuck in the box marked monism.

You are explaining nothing.

What is your evidence for the assertion that there are two stuffs ?  I never heard anything coming out of CERN that we have discovered a second stuff.  I think you are just making stuff up, literally.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16320 on: April 05, 2017, 07:56:54 AM »
What is your evidence for the assertion that there are two stuffs ?  I never heard anything coming out of CERN that we have discovered a second stuff.  I think you are just making stuff up, literally.
Purely philosophical as is your position and the fact that science always offers us reduced models. Please don't guff on about the virtues of science since there is always the danger with you guys that you extol values to it which are not actually derivable from science.

Your enquiry itself is derived from the philosophy that there is only matter/energy and that particular philosophy is based on a circular argument.
Even the term ''secondary stuff'' seems based on that assumption.

I notice that you demand evidence here....what about string theory and multiverse which you guys are prepared to except without evidence but which seems OK to you merely on the grounds that it is non divine?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 08:09:55 AM by Emergence-The musical »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16321 on: April 05, 2017, 08:05:04 AM »
Sword,

No. Is the truth (or otherwise) of the statement "the universe could exist without a god" affected by knowing why the universe exists?
Are you taking the atheist or the deist view?

I would like to see your explanation of how the universe could exist without a god? Other than the usual obviousness of the thing.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16322 on: April 05, 2017, 08:18:22 AM »
Purely philosophical as is your position and the fact that science always offers us reduced models. Please don't guff on about the virtues of science since there is always the danger with you guys that you extol values to it which are not actually derivable from science.

Your enquiry itself is derived from the philosophy that there is only matter/energy and that particular philosophy is based on a circular argument.
Even the term ''secondary stuff'' seems based on that assumption.

I notice that you demand evidence here....what about string theory and multiverse which you guys are prepared to except without evidence but which seems OK to you merely on the grounds that it is non divine?
That last sentence is such utter rubbish  that I don't know how you have the gall to write it .... well, I do know, I suppose, it's what you do quite a lot!!
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16323 on: April 05, 2017, 08:21:56 AM »
That last sentence is such utter rubbish  that I don't know how you have the gall to write it .... well, I do know, I suppose, it's what you do quite a lot!!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16324 on: April 05, 2017, 08:24:06 AM »
That last sentence is such utter rubbish  that I don't know how you have the gall to write it .... well, I do know, I suppose, it's what you do quite a lot!!
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