Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

To spell it out again assuming that material is all there is is philosophical materialism.

Just as well we don't think that then: remember we explained this to you before - that there is always a risk of unknown unknowns.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Were that all there was to it rather than it unavoidably being a philosophical position......... working like that would be completely despicable.

That’s exactly what it is, despite the lie you keep telling yourself that it’s something else. Possibly you’ve forgotten your spectacular own goal recently when you linked to a Wiki article that used the exact phrase “working assumption”?

Furthermore…

You can’t have a “furthermore” when your opening effort has collapsed.

…it isn't working scientifically because science does not assume that material is all there is.

Yes it does as a working assumption because the material is all the methods and tools of science can engage with. Science has nothing to say though to the possibility of one or ten or a bajillion other types of “somethings” that could be. Trouble is, nor does religion.

To spell it out again assuming that material is all there is is philosophical materialism.

You’re using “spelling out” as a euphemism for “lying” here. At best you might find some extreme versions of logical positivism that head in that direction, though how anyone would eliminate the possibility of unknown unknowns is anyone’s guess. The point though is that – to my knowledge – no-one claims the absolutist position you’re so desperate to paint on them and, even if you could find such a person, that would take you not one jot of one iota of one smidgin towards an argument for your (or any other) god.

I’ve told you several times now that it’s a bad idea to cling to a mistake just because you’re heavily invested in it. It's good advice - why not take it?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just as well we don't think that then: remember we explained this to you before - that there is always a risk of unknown unknowns.

Not in a case of known unknowns.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just as well we don't think that then: remember we explained this to you before - that there is always a risk of unknown unknowns.

Don't you have a duty of care to provide ear defenders because of the noise Yours, Somekinds and Bluehillsides turdpolishers are making?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

That’s exactly what it is, despite the lie you keep telling yourself that it’s something else. Possibly you’ve forgotten your spectacular own goal recently when you linked to a Wiki article that used the exact phrase “working assumption”?

You can’t have a “furthermore” when your opening effort has collapsed.

Yes it does as a working assumption because the material is all the methods and tools of science can engage with. Science has nothing to say though to the possibility of one or ten or a bajillion other types of “somethings” that could be. Trouble is, nor does religion.

You’re using “spelling out” as a euphemism for “lying” here. At best you might find some extreme versions of logical positivism that head in that direction, though how anyone would eliminate the possibility of unknown unknowns is anyone’s guess. The point though is that – to my knowledge – no-one claims the absolutist position you’re so desperate to paint on them and, even if you could find such a person, that would take you not one jot of one iota of one smidgin towards an argument for your (or any other) god.

I’ve told you several times now that it’s a bad idea to cling to a mistake just because you’re heavily invested in it. It's good advice - why not take it?

Bzzzzz Appeal to science to justify a philosophical position. That's a fallacy.
Why do you keep doing it.
Methodological materialism is great but you keep tucking material is all there is behind it and then hand wave.
Pack it in....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4ZipKdI1sY

[Walt Zingmatilder]

FFS Vlad - do you never read the replies to this!? Nobody here (that I've read recently) is making that assumption.

Just pay some attention for once in your life!

Reply #16345

Science isn't the working assumption that all there is material yet here Hillside suggesting it.
In any case a working assumption that it is Is inescapably a philosophy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Bzzzzz Appeal to science to justify a philosophical position. That's a fallacy.

Stop lying.

Why do you keep doing it.

Stop lying.

Methodological materialism is great but you keep tucking material is all there is behind it and then hand wave.
Pack it in....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4ZipKdI1sY

Stop lying.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Science isn't the working assumption that all there is material yet here Hillside suggesting it.

Yes it is. Stop lying.

In any case a working assumption that it is Is inescapably a philosophy.

No it isn't - it's just pragmatism. Stop lying.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Yes it is. Stop lying.

No it isn't - it's just pragmatism. Stop lying.

Fundie new atheists do say the darndest things.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Fundie new atheists do say the darndest things.

Well, at least dull incomprehension makes a change from lying I guess. Carry on like this and who knows - you might finally be able to engage in an argument.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Well, at least dull incomprehension makes a change from lying I guess. Carry on like this and who knows - you might finally be able to engage in an argument.

Even if you were right it wouldn't be with you because of your inability in that direction.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Even if you were right it wouldn't be with you because of your inability in that direction.

Aw no, someone's only gone and spilt a bowl of alphabet soup over your keyboard. Have a word will you? (Or as you would put it, "Alpahabetically challenged word naturalism is it philosophy because - um - materialism non-secateur").

[ippy]

Dear Ippy,
The strongest Christians I know are those who came to their senses in adulthood to discover the reality of the Christian faith, while many of my so called indoctrinated school friends drifted away from their faith as they grew older.  So I hope and pray that those of you who put their faith in the current wave of optimistic science based theories will one day come to see the truth.

I've just come across this, scribble of an idea that you probably you think of as an answer to my previous post, strange reply to my post where I question the continuing unethical promotion of religiosity toward very young and vulnerable children, pre having gained their ability to challenge, eventually when this practice is stopped and when it becomes the norm, to let children post seven to eight year old, thereabouts, hear about the more involved ideas the religions like to associate themselves with.

When the above takes place it'll be good to look at the figures of how many people take up religious beliefs; if it doesn't work teaching/promoting religion to the very young and vulnerable children why do the religious hang onto this practice like grim death, in the UK the amount of  religion based schools teaching the four to seven year old children exceeds all of the rest of our religion based schools.

I would suggest that this intro to religion lays in the background and dormant with these people that you think have seen the light in their later years; well let's put that to the test, on that long overdue day when we finally eject specifically religious education from our schools, as I've said then let's see how many people get to be taken in by the various ideas that have no evidence to support their many and various magical,mystical and superstition based elements.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

There have been many claims on this thread to say that there is no evidence to justify Christian faith.  But there is abundant evidence to substantiate the Christian faith in the Gospels.  The Gospel reading at Mass this Monday (John 8:1-11) tells the story of the woman who had been caught in adultery and was about to be stoned to death in accordance with the law of Moses.  When asked for His opinion, Jesus replies "Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone", and one by one they drop the stones and walk away.  So with these few words, Jesus brilliantly exposes the frailty of human nature.  Without condemning or making judgement He was able to make people aware of their sins and give them the opportunity to repent and start anew.  And to the woman He says "Go and sin no more".  The modern man made secular society seems to suggest that there is no such thing as sin, but we all have the opportunity to heed these words of the Gospel and recognise the divine wisdom which cuts across human thinking to show us the way, the truth and the life.

[BeRational]

There have been many claims on this thread to say that there is no evidence to justify Christian faith.  But there is abundant evidence to substantiate the Christian faith in the Gospels.  The Gospel reading at Mass this Monday (John 8:1-11) tells the story of the woman who had been caught in adultery and was about to be stoned to death in accordance with the law of Moses.  When asked for His opinion, Jesus replies "Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone", and one by one they drop the stones and walk away.  So with these few words, Jesus brilliantly exposes the frailty of human nature.  Without condemning or making judgement He was able to make people aware of their sins and give them the opportunity to repent and start anew.  And to the woman He says "Go and sin no more".  The modern man made secular society seems to suggest that there is no such thing as sin, but we all have the opportunity to heed these words of the Gospel and recognise the divine wisdom which cuts across human thinking to show us the way, the truth and the life.

It's just a story as you say, and never really happened. It's just a way of conveying how stoning is a bad idea.

The problem is that you think the stories in the book, are evidence for an actual god, when they are not.

They are evidence that people can make up stories.

[torridon]

There have been many claims on this thread to say that there is no evidence to justify Christian faith.  But there is abundant evidence to substantiate the Christian faith in the Gospels.  The Gospel reading at Mass this Monday (John 8:1-11) tells the story of the woman who had been caught in adultery and was about to be stoned to death in accordance with the law of Moses.  When asked for His opinion, Jesus replies "Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone", and one by one they drop the stones and walk away.  So with these few words, Jesus brilliantly exposes the frailty of human nature.  Without condemning or making judgement He was able to make people aware of their sins and give them the opportunity to repent and start anew.  And to the woman He says "Go and sin no more".  The modern man made secular society seems to suggest that there is no such thing as sin, but we all have the opportunity to heed these words of the Gospel and recognise the divine wisdom which cuts across human thinking to show us the way, the truth and the life.

Well that hasn't really done anything for the lack of evidence, being more in the way of a morality tale or a parable.

[floo]

Jesus is quoted as saying some sensible things, so what? Many other humans are in  that league too.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

There have been many claims on this thread to say that there is no evidence to justify Christian faith.  But there is abundant evidence to substantiate the Christian faith in the Gospels.  The Gospel reading at Mass this Monday (John 8:1-11) tells the story of the woman who had been caught in adultery and was about to be stoned to death in accordance with the law of Moses.  When asked for His opinion, Jesus replies "Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone", and one by one they drop the stones and walk away.  So with these few words, Jesus brilliantly exposes the frailty of human nature.  Without condemning or making judgement He was able to make people aware of their sins and give them the opportunity to repent and start anew.  And to the woman He says "Go and sin no more".  The modern man made secular society seems to suggest that there is no such thing as sin, but we all have the opportunity to heed these words of the Gospel and recognise the divine wisdom which cuts across human thinking to show us the way, the truth and the life.

There are lots of stories like this from different traditions - Aesop's fables for example. What make you think that the Gospels are evidence for the factual claims of your faith though?

[Maeght]

There have been many claims on this thread to say that there is no evidence to justify Christian faith.

People have said there is no evidence for the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus. Your point doesn't address that.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

#16333

Take a break dear, and review your strategy. Your challenges don't impinge on the thinking of us non believers as you might as well be talking in Double Dutch for all the sense they make! 

I think given the rage they stir up in the antitheist fraternity and the subsequent resort to ad hominem..................... they do hit home.

Big time!! When all else fails, accuse the poster of lying.

I started noticing this with the poster Hope at the end of last year. Then it was against Alan Burns. Now it's being used with regularity against you.

Kind of reminds me of where the influence comes from if you know from the Bible who the accuser of the Brethren is!!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

#16333
Big time!! When all else fails, accuse the poster of lying.

I started noticing this with the poster Hope at the end of last year. Then it was against Alan Burns. Now it's being used with regularity against you.

Kind of reminds me of where the influence comes from if you know from the Bible who the accuser of the Brethren is!!

Agreed.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sword,

Big time!! When all else fails, accuse the poster of lying.

I started noticing this with the poster Hope at the end of last year. Then it was against Alan Burns. Now it's being used with regularity against you.

Kind of reminds me of where the influence comes from if you know from the Bible who the accuser of the Brethren is!!

It's not "when all else fails" at all. When someone is caught out in a lie, it's not unreasonable to point out the lie.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Agreed.

There's a simple solution: stop lying.

[Nearly Sane]

#16333
Big time!! When all else fails, accuse the poster of lying.

I started noticing this with the poster Hope at the end of last year. Then it was against Alan Burns. Now it's being used with regularity against you.

Kind of reminds me of where the influence comes from if you know from the Bible who the accuser of the Brethren is!!

Then maybe people should stop lying. If people do regularly lie, you are now claiming that that being pointed out somehow must mean they aren't lying.  Which  will mean that anyone who does lie, can get away with it. Perhaps ypj need to think a little longer on your position as currently, apart from being an attempt at poisoning the well, it's paradoxical

[wigginhall]

I don't think people lightly accuse others of lying.  But when it is egregious, what can one do?   In the case of AB, I have sort of made my peace with it, since I think he probably doesn't believe he is lying, in other words, a kind of compulsive lying.   In the case of Vlad, his misrepresentations are so frequent,  that I don't know what to think  really.  Again, it's possible that he doesn't distinguish between truth and lie.