Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3882729 times)

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16375 on: April 06, 2017, 04:24:05 PM »
People who claim to have the elusive 'truth', with no supportive evidence to back it up, are being economical with the truth, to say the least.

None of us can say with certainty that a god of some sort does, or does not, exist somewhere. I am of the opinion that all gods worshipped by humans are their creations, but I realise I could be wrong. I just hope I am not.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16376 on: April 06, 2017, 05:01:25 PM »
I don't think people lightly accuse others of lying.  But when it is egregious, what can one do?   In the case of AB, I have sort of made my peace with it, since I think he probably doesn't believe he is lying, in other words, a kind of compulsive lying.

I think compulsive liars still know they are lying - they just can't stop themselves.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16377 on: April 06, 2017, 05:29:21 PM »
It's just a story as you say, and never really happened. It's just a way of conveying how stoning is a bad idea.

The problem is that you think the stories in the book, are evidence for an actual god, when they are not.

They are evidence that people can make up stories.
But the evidence indicates that this is not a made up story.  If you read the Gospel text, you find that it includes a description of Jesus drawing letters in the sand with his finger.  Such detail is not relevant to the main subject of the text and is only likely to be included by an eye witness account.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16378 on: April 06, 2017, 05:56:19 PM »
But the evidence indicates that this is not a made up story.  If you read the Gospel text, you find that it includes a description of Jesus drawing letters in the sand with his finger.  Such detail is not relevant to the main subject of the text and is only likely to be included by an eye witness account.

No it doesn't.

It is just made up, unless you can demonstrate that it's not.

Why do you believe these are records of actual events?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16379 on: April 06, 2017, 06:06:13 PM »
But the evidence indicates that this is not a made up story.  If you read the Gospel text, you find that it includes a description of Jesus drawing letters in the sand with his finger.  Such detail is not relevant to the main subject of the text and is only likely to be included by an eye witness account.

There are lots of similar details in novels - it doesn't make them factual.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16380 on: April 06, 2017, 06:09:05 PM »
There are lots of similar details in novels - it doesn't make them factual.
What are your favourite first century jewish novels?

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16381 on: April 06, 2017, 06:27:43 PM »
But the evidence indicates that this is not a made up story.  If you read the Gospel text, you find that it includes a description of Jesus drawing letters in the sand with his finger.  Such detail is not relevant to the main subject of the text and is only likely to be included by an eye witness account.

So, when you read of Pip giving food to Magwitch it must be true?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16382 on: April 06, 2017, 06:36:25 PM »
For those who believe the Bible be factual, how do they defend the sexual immorality some of the Biblical heroes displayed?

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16383 on: April 06, 2017, 06:46:12 PM »
What are your favourite first century jewish novels?

Can you just explain why you see that as a relevant question?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16384 on: April 06, 2017, 07:38:28 PM »
Can you just explain why you see that as a relevant question?
Certainly. Your Reply #16381
Are you not comparing the Gospels to novels?
Wouldn't it therefore be fair to ask a question which challenges your actual experience of novels written at the time?

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16385 on: April 06, 2017, 08:00:58 PM »
What are your favourite first century jewish novels?

As the format of the novel wasn't in existence then, it would be rather difficult to comply with your request. However why not take a look at the story of Khonsuemheb and the ghost from Ancient Egypt, written sometime in the 19th-20th Dynasty period, and decide whether it is likely to be true. :)
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16386 on: April 06, 2017, 08:15:18 PM »
As the format of the novel wasn't in existence then, it would be rather difficult to comply with your request. However why not take a look at the story of Khonsuemheb and the ghost from Ancient Egypt, written sometime in the 19th-20th Dynasty period, and decide whether it is likely to be true. :)
So let me get this straight.....there were no novels in 1st century Palestine and you are referring me to an Egyptian book written about 1000 BC.............

............Can I get it from Amazon?

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16387 on: April 06, 2017, 08:22:01 PM »
So let me get this straight.....there were no novels in 1st century Palestine and you are referring me to an Egyptian book written about 1000 BC.............

............Can I get it from Amazon?

The point is Vlad, and you know this since I've mentioned it often enough, how have you checked that stories in the Bible aren't fiction: be it Moses and the parting of the Red Sea or Jesus walking on water?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16388 on: April 06, 2017, 09:46:21 PM »
The point is Vlad, and you know this since I've mentioned it often enough, how have you checked that stories in the Bible aren't fiction: be it Moses and the parting of the Red Sea or Jesus walking on water?
As has been pointed out to you by me the epistles, which were written within living memory point to a community who believed in the key events of the Gospel. Paul exhorts those communities to seek out witnesses.

As has been pointed out there was no form of the Novel at time and some of the writing does read like reportage all found things fall on the side of these not being complete works of fiction.

The thesis people believed anything in those days is also not true and Paul acknowledges the same disbelief that miracles happen as now.

I'm afraid though that argument from disbelief is unsatisfactory.
.
That God could do these things makes things more likely.

But at the heart of the Gospels is not the miracles so it is invalid to focus on them. It is not the teaching. It is the question of who Jesus is and what he does for us.

As one minister has put it the only piece of Gospel information that would have been needed for Christianity and I would add your response to it is that all need saving and Jesus is that saviour.

 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 09:55:42 PM by Emergence-The musical »

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16389 on: April 06, 2017, 09:52:35 PM »
It is the question of who Jesus is and what he does for us.

You use the present tense. Why do you believe a person who died nearly 2,000 years ago can still do anything?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16390 on: April 06, 2017, 09:57:32 PM »

You use the present tense. Why do you believe a person who died nearly 2,000 years ago can still do anything?
Because He can still be encountered and transform lives as I have experienced.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16391 on: April 06, 2017, 09:59:11 PM »
Because He can still be encountered and transform lives as I have experienced.
Thank you for reply. However, do you agree that any 'encounter' is in your mind only?
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16392 on: April 06, 2017, 10:22:52 PM »
Thank you for reply. However, do you agree that any 'encounter' is in your mind only?
I don't believe it is consciously generated by me in an act of imagination. I and indeed no one can attribute it to hallucination because there is the question of what would be hallucinated. Nor was it wishful thinking since Christ's actual presence had to bring my reluctant self, to opening up to him after an afternoon where, because of the gravity of my condition before God. I was dissociated from the world from which I was trying to draw distraction from the experience.

Isn't any encounter in the mind anyway.

I have had other experiences which have changed but have learned not to seek the sensational but God obviously provided existential evidence to me in the early days. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:32:45 PM by Emergence-The musical »

Anchorman

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16393 on: April 06, 2017, 10:26:22 PM »
As the format of the novel wasn't in existence then, it would be rather difficult to comply with your request. However why not take a look at the story of Khonsuemheb and the ghost from Ancient Egypt, written sometime in the 19th-20th Dynasty period, and decide whether it is likely to be true. :)


_
I prefer the tale of Sinuhe.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16394 on: April 06, 2017, 10:44:01 PM »
I don't believe it is consciously generated by me in an act of imagination. I and indeed no one can attribute it to hallucination because there is the question of what would be hallucinated. Nor was it wishful thinking since Christ's actual presence had to bring my reluctant self, to opening up to him after an afternoon where, because of the gravity of my condition before God took up my mind I was dissociated from the world at which I was trying to draw distraction from the experience.
That was I expect, because in our country and cultural background, the idea of Christ would have been the most likely to have helped you in whatever those circumstances were. However, since all the inner strength and belief you needed was human, and entirely your own strength, you could allow yourself to take all the credit. I would say, do not underestimate your own human brain's capabilities. 
Quote
Isn't any encounter in the mind anyway.
Of the sort referred to, yes.
Quote
I have had other experiences which have changed but have learned not to seek the sensational but God obviously provided existential evidence to me in the early days.
I hope you will one day have the courage to step away from the need for a God belief, since I say firmly that you have done it all yourself anyway. Mind you, probably other humans helped?
 Hmmmmm, why not show your serious side more often? :)
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16395 on: April 06, 2017, 10:57:51 PM »
That was I expect, because in our country and cultural background, the idea of Christ would have been the most likely to have helped you in whatever those circumstances were. However, since all the inner strength and belief you needed was human, and entirely your own strength, you could allow yourself to take all the credit. I would say, do not underestimate your own human brain's capabilities.  Of the sort referred to, yes.I hope you will one day have the courage to step away from the need for a God belief, since I say firmly that you have done it all yourself anyway. Mind you, probably other humans helped?
 Hmmmmm, why not show your serious side more often? :)
I'm afraid you have misunderstood. Christ was exactly the thing I did not want.
I did not embrace him as a crutch. Any distress I experienced was due to realisation that this was God himself and believe me one knows one's situation then.

I wanted badly during the experience for something in the world to distract me from the experience of God!

I'm afraid with all due respect and I respect your insight into the idea of Christ as helper. I don't recognise your interpretation of my experience.

I think our culture is more likely to lead towards the stiff upper lip self psychology building stoicism you extol. I certainly hadn't experienced anything like this and the attitude shift you are suggesting looks more like the 'merely' mental experience. Nothing wrong with it but not in the encounter bracket.

As one minister has put the encounter with Christ ''It frequently is received as the Bad news before it can become the Good news''.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 11:17:45 PM by Emergence-The musical »

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16396 on: April 07, 2017, 12:00:01 AM »
So let me get this straight.....there were no novels in 1st century Palestine and you are referring me to an Egyptian book written about 1000 BC.............

............Can I get it from Amazon?

No, there were no novels in Ist century Palestine, as the genre hadn't yet been invented.

The story that I am referring you to was from circa 1570 to 1069 BCE, but scholars have suggested that the story was much older.

I'm fairly sure that if you researched certain authors and scholars, you might well find this story on Amazon.

Now, how about you check it out and decide whether it is likely to be true or not. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16397 on: April 07, 2017, 08:32:55 AM »
Certainly. Your Reply #16381
Are you not comparing the Gospels to novels?

No. I was simply pointing out that saying that because a piece of text must be factual because it contains a detail such as the one which Alan refers to falls down when you consider novels.

Quote
Wouldn't it therefore be fair to ask a question which challenges your actual experience of novels written at the time?

If I was comparing the Gospels to novels written at the same time then yes, but I wasn't.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16398 on: April 07, 2017, 09:53:47 AM »
No. I was simply pointing out that saying that because a piece of text must be factual because it contains a detail such as the one which Alan refers to falls down when you consider novels.

A fictional account could be believed as true and have no consequence, or as in the case have consequences such as the prosecution or acquittal of an innocent or guilty man or survival or death from a medical condition.

A community based on a mythical man is unlikely to have emerged within living memory nor would a member of that community extol new members to seek evidence as Paul did.

The evidence is that this communities beliefs line up with that of the Gospels.
I think Alan is talking about reportage. Parts of the Gospels read like reportage.
CS Lewis talks about the reportage. He was not only a working writer and novelist but a linguist and no mean mythologist either so presumably had experience in distinctions.

It was his conclusion that the early Jewish Christians were galvanised into new forms of writing that was for them unlikely to come from there imagination.

Sources: Mere Christianity,God in the Dock, The Problem of Pain and Surprised by Joy.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16399 on: April 07, 2017, 09:53:54 AM »
No. I was simply pointing out that saying that because a piece of text must be factual because it contains a detail such as the one which Alan refers to falls down when you consider novels.

If I was comparing the Gospels to novels written at the same time then yes, but I wasn't.
But the point is that novels did not appear until many centuries later.  So are you suggesting that the writer of the Gospel had somehow acquired this remarkable gift of writing in the style of novels?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton