Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3883046 times)

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16400 on: April 07, 2017, 09:58:10 AM »
But the point is that novels did not appear until many centuries later.  So are you suggesting that the writer of the Gospel had somehow acquired this remarkable gift of writing in the style of novels?

Nothing special at all about the writings and completely understandable by humans at the time.

Books older than the bible have the same sort of thing but I assume you do not believe them.

Let's be honest, there is nothing special about the bible to make it more likely true than any other supposed holy book. The only reason and it is the only reason you think it is, is because you have been conditioned to think it is.

If you could detach yourself from this way of thinking you would see it for what it really is!
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16401 on: April 07, 2017, 10:00:45 AM »

Let's be honest, there is nothing special about the bible to make it more likely true than any other supposed holy book.
Can you back up that opinion? Have you read Holy books? What quality is it which makes them all equal?....careful now.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16402 on: April 07, 2017, 10:07:19 AM »
Let me ask Bible enthusiasts again: bearing the mind the uncertain provenance and that these Gospel texts weren't produced until decades after the events portrayed, how have you eliminated the risks of bias, mistake, lies or propaganda in these texts?

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16403 on: April 07, 2017, 10:09:56 AM »
A fictional account could be believed as true and have no consequence, or as in the case have consequences such as the prosecution or acquittal of an innocent or guilty man or survival or death from a medical condition.

A community based on a mythical man is unlikely to have emerged within living memory nor would a member of that community extol new members to seek evidence as Paul did.

The evidence is that this communities beliefs line up with that of the Gospels.
I think Alan is talking about reportage. Parts of the Gospels read like reportage.
CS Lewis talks about the reportage. He was not only a working writer and novelist but a linguist and no mean mythologist either so presumably had experience in distinctions.

It was his conclusion that the early Jewish Christians were galvanised into new forms of writing that was for them unlikely to come from there imagination.

Sources: Mere Christianity,God in the Dock, The Problem of Pain and Surprised by Joy.

Which has nothing to do with the point I was making.

I do not consider the accounts as fictional exactly but an expression of people's beliefs which may contain facts, fictional details, hoped for details, stories heard etc. There is a great deal of analysis of the Gospels and much debate of course and I am no expert.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16404 on: April 07, 2017, 10:11:52 AM »
Let me ask Bible enthusiasts again: bearing the mind the uncertain provenance and that these Gospel texts weren't produced until decades after the events portrayed, how have you eliminated the risks of bias, mistake, lies or propaganda in these texts?
Let me tell you again, continuity between the Gospels, Acts and Epistles, The existence of the Gospel based community, existence of heterodox early communities, own experience.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16405 on: April 07, 2017, 10:12:27 AM »
But the point is that novels did not appear until many centuries later.  So are you suggesting that the writer of the Gospel had somehow acquired this remarkable gift of writing in the style of novels?

You believe there was no story telling, no imagination employed to tell stories, no weaving of personal experiences into story telling to enhance the feeling of reality for the listeners/readers in early texts and in oral histories of the time? DO you think people in those days lacked imagination and story telling skills? Just because there were no novels does not mean that such skills were in existence and used in different formats.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16406 on: April 07, 2017, 10:14:46 AM »
Which has nothing to do with the point I was making.

I do not consider the accounts as fictional exactly but an expression of people's beliefs which may contain facts, fictional details, hoped for details, stories heard etc. There is a great deal of analysis of the Gospels and much debate of course and I am no expert.
Sorry I misunderstood you. There are people who describe the NT as a complete work of fiction and I was hasty in providing an honestly held refutation for that.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16407 on: April 07, 2017, 10:19:30 AM »
Sorry I misunderstood you. There are people who describe the NT as a complete work of fiction and I was hasty in providing an honestly held refutation for that.

No problem.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16408 on: April 07, 2017, 10:32:52 AM »
Let me tell you again, continuity between the Gospels, Acts and Epistles, The existence of the Gospel based community, existence of heterodox early communities, own experience.

That doesn't work: Sherlock Holmes smoked a pipe in numerous stories about him, and you still haven't explained how you've concluded that these early communities didn't lie, exaggerate or make mistakes in what they wrote.   

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16409 on: April 07, 2017, 10:33:55 AM »
You believe there was no story telling, no imagination employed to tell stories, no weaving of personal experiences into story telling to enhance the feeling of reality for the listeners/readers in early texts and in oral histories of the time? DO you think people in those days lacked imagination and story telling skills? Just because there were no novels does not mean that such skills were in existence and used in different formats.
Do you not think you might be taking too much of an overview and amalgam of what you believe the average culture of an ancient world spanning thousands of years and applying it to the specific case of first century Palestine?

I have mentioned CS Lewis and his view on the narrowness of writing in the area.
Also I feel you are neglecting epistoliary writing.

I'm sure certain skills were around at the time but for extraordinary skill in different fictional genres seems less probable given Lewises opinion and no evidence of other similar reportage writing except in the small Christian community.

I think the only comparable writings of the time are the roman and jewish histories and I feel I have to say there seem to be no difficulties in them for atheists.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16410 on: April 07, 2017, 10:38:41 AM »
That doesn't work: Sherlock Holmes smoked a pipe in numerous stories about him, and you still haven't explained how you've concluded that these early communities didn't lie, exaggerate or make mistakes in what they wrote.
That doesn't work because we know Sherlock Holmes to be fictional, There were NO communities based on an encounter and belief in Sherlock Holmes per se and the only experience I have of Sherlock Holmes is that they were films starring Basil Rathbone, Peter Cushing , Benedict Cumberbund et al.

Sherlock Holmes is set up as an exaggeration in the first place.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16411 on: April 07, 2017, 10:40:17 AM »
That doesn't work: Sherlock Holmes smoked a pipe in numerous stories about him, and you still haven't explained how you've concluded that these early communities didn't lie, exaggerate or make mistakes in what they wrote.
Are you saying there was no pipe smoking in the late Victorian period!?!

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16412 on: April 07, 2017, 10:43:41 AM »
I have no doubt the authors of the documents making up the Bible had imaginations every bit as vivid as those employed by story writers today.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16413 on: April 07, 2017, 10:48:45 AM »
I have no doubt the authors of the documents making up the Bible had imaginations every bit as vivid as those employed by story writers today.
I do....(there isn't a 1st century Palestinian Star wars for starters) and so does at least one literary and mythological researcher from Oxford University no less............What have you got?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16414 on: April 07, 2017, 11:16:21 AM »
Another example of the significance of apparently minor details in the Gospels appeared in last Sunday's reading in the account of Lazarus being raised from the dead.  It mentions that Jesus waited for two days after hearing the news that Lazarus was ill before travelling to see him.  Apparently He needed to wait until Lazarus was dead in order to ensure His followers would believe in Him when He raises him from the dead.  And on arrival, Jesus shares in the grief over the death with Martha and Mary as shown in the shortest verse in the Bible: "Jesus wept", illustrating the unfortunate need sometimes for grief and suffering to facilitate our faith.

Jesus said to Martha: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 11:25:40 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16415 on: April 07, 2017, 11:20:48 AM »
Are you saying there was no pipe smoking in the late Victorian period!?!

Vlad

Try reading for comprehension.

I was pointing out that authors can carry stuff, such as plot-lines and character portrayals, over their various different writings, such as say a series of books using the same fictional characters (Harry Potter being an obvious example). Where in both fictions and in portrayals of real people there are inconsistencies, such key events affecting a character differing between accounts that reference the same time period, then it can be either unsatisfactory (in the case of fiction) or may indicate risks of inaccuracies when it comes to real people or events. 

So, when stories involve real people or claimed actual events then the risks of mistake, exaggeration and lies become an issue if these writings are to be considered as containing historical fact, and especially so where the content involves highly remarkable claims and yet the provenance of these texts isn't certain and they are known to be post-hoc by decades. Anyone advocating these texts as history will presumably have assessed these risks - but when it comes to the NT they do seem reluctant to say how they did this.

I see you're using C.S. Lewis as an authority: not a good idea.     

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16416 on: April 07, 2017, 11:25:52 AM »

Jesus said to Martha: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

That would imply that people who find such stuff implausible are stuffed.  Discrimination  >:(

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16417 on: April 07, 2017, 11:27:26 AM »
Do you not think you might be taking too much of an overview and amalgam of what you believe the average culture of an ancient world spanning thousands of years and applying it to the specific case of first century Palestine?

I have mentioned CS Lewis and his view on the narrowness of writing in the area.
Also I feel you are neglecting epistoliary writing.

I'm sure certain skills were around at the time but for extraordinary skill in different fictional genres seems less probable given Lewises opinion and no evidence of other similar reportage writing except in the small Christian community.

I think the only comparable writings of the time are the roman and jewish histories and I feel I have to say there seem to be no difficulties in them for atheists.

Our brains are no different now than they were then so I am sure they had the same skills of imagination. The media in which those skills were used would have been different - but as I say I don't think this sort of stuff was made up purely from imagination but the sort of example Alan gave could quite easily be an embellishment to maek a point or some half memory of something for example. To say it is evidence to show the Gospel accounts are factual is somewhat of a stretch I would say.

Can you expand on your point about Epistolary writing please.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16418 on: April 07, 2017, 11:33:22 AM »
Another example of the significance of apparently minor details in the Gospels appeared in last Sunday's reading in the account of Lazarus being raised from the dead.  It mentions that Jesus waited for two days after hearing the news that Lazarus was ill before travelling to see him.  Apparently He needed to wait until Lazarus was dead in order to ensure His followers would believe in Him when He raises him from the dead.  And on arrival, Jesus shares in the grief over the death with Martha and Mary as shown in the shortest verse in the Bible: "Jesus wept", illustrating the unfortunate need for grief and suffering to facilitate our faith.

Jesus said to Martha: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Alan

How do you know this story is actually true?

If you wanted to write propaganda in support of Jesus none of the above tale represents an unduly convoluted plot - if the aim is to show Jesus can raise the dead then waiting until the chap who is known to be ill is actually dead isn't surprising if, as you say, the intention here is to convince others of his abilities.

It can easily be read as an advert for Jesus, plus there is the hard sell bit at the end.


Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16419 on: April 07, 2017, 11:34:07 AM »

I see you're using C.S. Lewis as an authority: not a good idea.   
Are you claiming to be a higher authority than Lewis?
If so, you must have undertaken considerable studies in ancient literature and mythology.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16420 on: April 07, 2017, 11:38:06 AM »
Are you claiming to be a higher authority than Lewis?
If so, you must have undertaken considerable studies in ancient literature and mythology.

Nice straw man, Alan, since I'm not claiming an authority status.

Lewis was indeed a significant scholar but a buffoon when it came to his pro-Christian output, as I think several of us pointed out recently when you offered up his hopeless 'man or rabbit' essay.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16421 on: April 07, 2017, 11:45:14 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
As has been pointed out to you by me the epistles, which were written within living memory point to a community who believed in the key events of the Gospel. Paul exhorts those communities to seek out witnesses.

No doubt, as indeed do the chronicles from different religious traditions you believe to be wrong. How do the witness accounts of Mohammed on his winged horse sound to your ears? The point though is not the reporting of events so much as the explanatory narratives that were subsequently woven around them: “Fred says that Bill told him that decades ago Harry saw a bloke killed and walking around a few days later, therefore a resurrection” etc. 

Quote
As has been pointed out there was no form of the Novel at time and some of the writing does read like reportage all found things fall on the side of these not being complete works of fiction.

There were (and are) lots or narratives from many predecessor civilisations (Greek, Egyptian etc), many of which were co-opted by the early Christians, a process called syncretisation. The resurrection story in particular appears frequently in many earlier stories.

Quote
The thesis people believed anything in those days is also not true and Paul acknowledges the same disbelief that miracles happen as now.

Lots of peoples believed lots of things in those days, and in earlier days, and in other places etc. Pretty much any civilisation with a long lineage has myths and miracle stories of its own.

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I'm afraid though that argument from disbelief is unsatisfactory.

There is no such argument. The only arguments necessary are those that falsify the arguments attempted by theists. 

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That God could do these things makes things more likely.

Circular reasoning: “God is real because God could do these things.”

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But at the heart of the Gospels is not the miracles so it is invalid to focus on them. It is not the teaching. It is the question of who Jesus is and what he does for us.

It’s valid when people cite “the Gospels” as evidence for their religious beliefs. They’re no more evidence than the chronicles from other faiths are evidence for their factual claims.

Quote
As one minister has put it the only piece of Gospel information that would have been needed for Christianity and I would add your response to it is that all need saving and Jesus is that saviour.

That’s just a claim – you can’t retro-fit a claim you find appealing to its truthfulness or otherwise. You make this mistake a lot I’ve noticed – if you big up the claim enough, somehow that reaches back into its epistemic value.

It doesn’t.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 11:53:25 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16422 on: April 07, 2017, 11:46:07 AM »
Our brains are no different now than they were then so I am sure they had the same skills of imagination. The media in which those skills were used would have been different - but as I say I don't think this sort of stuff was made up purely from imagination but the sort of example Alan gave could quite easily be an embellishment to maek a point or some half memory of something for example. To say it is evidence to show the Gospel accounts are factual is somewhat of a stretch I would say.

Can you expand on your point about Epistolary writing please.
Yes my point is writing a story or a narrative is a completely different thing from letters outlining protocol, discipline, policies, ethos in an organisation or community, progress reporting and just day to day chat.

This stuff if less likely to be nitty gritty message and would deal with problems, troubles ,doubts, successes, advice. What the NT epistles show is a community which believed in the same ground covered by the Gospels. They represent our first available Gospel if you will is implicit and explicit in the epistles in a looser curation or edition.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16423 on: April 07, 2017, 11:48:47 AM »
Nice straw man, Alan, since I'm not claiming an authority status.

Lewis was indeed a significant scholar but a buffoon when it came to his pro-Christian output,
Deary Me.

Start with an ad hominem eh Gordon.
I think it is to his scholarship we are appealing to so far in this thread. You've kind of Gone nuclear Gordon. Straight to the ''Oh well he's just a buffoon''(evidence might be nice)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 11:53:12 AM by Emergence-The musical »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16424 on: April 07, 2017, 11:51:18 AM »
Odd that AB choose a passage fir which there is considerable controversy about laters interpolations as evidence