Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3885934 times)

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16500 on: April 08, 2017, 01:11:54 PM »
But how would you know the sheer variety if one thinks they are all like Jesus?

I didn't say anything about Jesus.

You are confusing the variety of Gods with the variety of claims.....and indeed the variety of claims and the claims themselves.

This doesn't make much sense. I'm talking about the variety of claims and the variety of gods to which they refer.

It doesn't help with a starting premise of not needing any expertise.

What expertise? Do I need to study all the details of every single claim of gods throughout history? Have you done that? What else, why stop at god claims?
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SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16501 on: April 08, 2017, 01:35:48 PM »
#16479

Quote from: torridon
What has worldview got to do with anything? It is a well established principle, and a wise one, that fantastic claims require fantastic evidence and inconsistent records of anecdotal claims and alleged personal testimony from antiquity hardly constitute fantastic evidence.  It is wisdom gained through experience, rather than a worldview, that cautions us to be sceptical of fantastic claims.  That people in those times might have believed such stories is not surprising; on the other hand dead people actually coming back to life definitely is.
Firstly, try analysing evidence without one! Whatever worldview is employed makes assumptions about that which is being investigated. A classic example of this is a court case. The prosecution has a worldview that assumes the defendant is guilty and tries to demonstrate so, the defence has a worldview that the defendant is innocent and tries to demonstrate so, the jury have a worldview that is open to either conclusion, will see what is presented and then attempt to reach a conclusion.

If the claim is that fantastic claims require fantastic evidence then those making such a claim should be able to cite what they would consider as fantastic evidence. It is not an unreasonable request. If those doing investigations into e.g. how did life on earth start can start by assuming natural causes and explanations and then come up with their hypotheses with the evidence that they think supports them, why when arguing against religious beliefs does the same not apply?

From my perspective, I see the approach taken by the more evangelical materialists here to be pretty much identical to my faith, which is why I find glaring inconsistencies. What they do in their faith in materialism is objected to when religious believers do the same. Furthermore, in some cases what is said/done doesn’t live up to its own scientific standards and it’s one reason why in the case of some posters, there is an always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3 v 7, for my Christian brethren). Their whole approach violates properties of truth and the fact that the barrel is well and truly being scraped by referring to certain posters as lying shows how desperate things have become.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16502 on: April 08, 2017, 01:38:47 PM »

What expertise? Do I need to study all the details of every single claim of gods throughout history?
If you are finally refuting them yes....

What Hillside is proposing that if Jesus is what Jesus does then there are loads of Gods claiming to be Jesus, or as Hillside bids us to believe that all the claims are the same. That isn't the case.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16503 on: April 08, 2017, 01:41:20 PM »
Vlad,

No, all I "assumed" was that you meant what you said - essentially that you accept as evidence stories for the faith in which you believe, and reject as evidence the stories for the faiths in which you don't believe. Whether Mohammed and his winged horse, the Tooth Fairy or Poseidon doesn't matter for this purpose.

And if you don't like "blunders", stop making them.
It may not matter for certain purposes Hillside but does your use of them relate to the contexts you use them in?......I'm not sure.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16504 on: April 08, 2017, 01:49:22 PM »
Dr David Grimes of Oxford University has put the survival time of a 500 person conspiracy at 25 years.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16505 on: April 08, 2017, 01:50:32 PM »
If you are finally refuting them yes....

There are 4000 gods listed here: Godcheker. You are personally an expert on all of them, are you? Otherwise, by your own standard, you cannot have rejected all but the one you believe in...
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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16506 on: April 08, 2017, 01:51:24 PM »
Extraordinary accusations demand extraordinary evidence .........

Well no any evidence will do........Be nice to have some from you Hilly.

You make extraordinary claims with no evidence to back them, you don't like it when people point it out to you.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16507 on: April 08, 2017, 01:57:59 PM »
You make extraordinary claims with no evidence to back them, you don't like it when people point it out to you.
So Floo: are you going to cite what you would consider as extraordinary evidence, or is this another case of your I don't believe X so there is no evidence for it masquerading as I don't see evidence for X therefore I don't believe X
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16508 on: April 08, 2017, 02:01:16 PM »
So Floo: are you going to cite what you would consider as extraordinary evidence, or is this another case of your I don't believe X so there is no evidence for it masquerading as I don't see evidence for X therefore I don't believe X

Have you ever come up with any evidence to support your faith, which is actually verifiable?

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16509 on: April 08, 2017, 02:19:14 PM »
Have you ever come up with any evidence to support your faith, which is actually verifiable?
The question still stands as to how you are going to verify it?

One property of truth is that it is supported by evidence. I wouldn't have a belief in God if I didn't see anything as being evidence for Him. It's not just one thing though, otherwise if something happened to that one thing, it would fall apart.

I remember a poster on the BBC Christian Topic forum years ago saying something along the lines of the proof being seek and you will find, as Jesus mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount. I hadn't thought about things in that way before, but there is a sense that for Christians such as myself, this is our experience.

I know that you've mentioned about your experience when you were younger. To be honest, I've no direct answer to that. All I can say is that there have been times in my experience where at the time I don't understand, but some answers come later on. In the meantime, I have to keep on believing and trusting.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 02:21:33 PM by SwordOfTheSpirit »
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16510 on: April 08, 2017, 02:37:23 PM »
I remember a poster on the BBC Christian Topic forum years ago saying something along the lines of the proof being seek and you will find, as Jesus mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount. I hadn't thought about things in that way before, but there is a sense that for Christians such as myself, this is our experience.

First, unless that leads to some repeatable, tangible result, then we are talking about subjective experiences, which, especially if you've decided to 'seek' something, are wide open to misinterpretation.

Second, why the silly game of hide-and-seek? If we are talking about an omnipotent god that has an important message for us, why the hell isn't it bleedin' obvious? Why is all the supposed evidence buried in some old contradictory books and hidden in individuals' personal, subjective experiences? Why would a real god not stand out from all the human inventions?

I can only conclude that if there is a real god, it has serious communication problems or doesn't care about communicating.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16511 on: April 08, 2017, 02:38:27 PM »
There are 4000 gods listed here: Godcheker. You are personally an expert on all of them, are you? Otherwise, by your own standard, you cannot have rejected all but the one you believe in...
So you are abandoning your ''logical' approach and reverting to the ''Vladcentricism''
approach.

I am not the one finally refuting the claims of all Gods here YOU are.....get to it!

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16512 on: April 08, 2017, 02:42:25 PM »
So you are abandoning your ''logical' approach and reverting to the ''Vladcentricism''
approach.

I am not the one finally refuting the claims of all Gods here YOU are.....get to it!

WOW so you are admitting your approach isn't logical, WEY HEY! ;D

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16513 on: April 08, 2017, 02:47:27 PM »
Have you ever come up with any evidence to support your faith, which is actually verifiable?
If you were actually reading the thread instead of ''cheerleading'', You would have seen that defending Gospel claims is doing just that.

Dismissing them with a generalised philosophical ''I dooooon't believe it'' is just er, argument from disbelief and a strange assumption that you hold the ''default position''.

I am accusing you guys of a lack of rigour.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16514 on: April 08, 2017, 02:48:13 PM »
So you are abandoning your ''logical' approach and reverting to the ''Vladcentricism''
approach.

I am not the one finally refuting the claims of all Gods here YOU are.....get to it!

So, you seem to be saying that you have decided not to believe in the majority of gods without having any "expertise" (as you put it) but you are demanding that others have expertise in order to not believe in your god?

I don't need to refute god claims any more than I need to refute claims of ghosts or vampires or alien abductions or astrology. It's up to those making the claims to provide some credible evidence or reasoning.

I am not saying that a god (or gods) is impossible - just that nobody (in my experience) has made anything like a credible case for thinking that there is one (or more).
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16515 on: April 08, 2017, 02:52:52 PM »
WOW so you are admitting your approach isn't logical, WEY HEY! ;D
1:What on earth makes you think that?

2: Wey Hey?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16516 on: April 08, 2017, 03:05:45 PM »

I don't need to refute god claims any more than I need to refute claims of ghosts or vampires or alien abductions or astrology. It's up to those making the claims to provide some credible evidence or reasoning.

But you think it fit that I do?

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16517 on: April 08, 2017, 03:21:39 PM »
But you think it fit that I do?

Do keep up. I made two different points.

The first was in response to your criticism in #16496 that I had the assumption of not needing expertise (which I do). I pointed out that you have (rightly, IMO) dismissed most gods without expertise in them - thus exposing your double standard of expecting expertise from me about your god but none from you about other gods.

Got it?

The second was that actually we don't need expertise in everything in order to not take it seriously because it's up to those who propose the ideas to provide reasons to take them seriously - which has always been my position.

Is this all too complicated for you?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16518 on: April 08, 2017, 03:34:53 PM »


The second was that actually we don't need expertise in everything in order to not take it seriously because it's up to those who propose the ideas to provide reasons to take them seriously
If you propose  bias, mistake, propaganda then it is up you to provide reasons to take those seriously.

Secondly if your objections to something offered as a history are based on a philosophy then you have to justify your philosophy and also provide an alternative history.

If your are refuting a claim then you need to know what a claim is or else you are appealing to a philosophical position. You seem to be saying you are refuting and that you are not to prepared to. What kind of schizoid approach is that.

If you are saying that the Gospel history did not happen then you are de facto suggesting an alternative history. You need to present it and back it up.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16519 on: April 08, 2017, 03:39:30 PM »
Do keep up. I made two different points.

 thus exposing your double standard of expecting expertise from me about your god but none from you about other gods.

Do you have any if you don't feel you need to.

I doubt you have no expertise of Gods. That is implausible.

As is your claim that I have no expertise on other gods. I await your proof for that assertion.

In any case I have given it by exposing Hillsides one size fits all approach to theology.


floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16520 on: April 08, 2017, 03:50:58 PM »
Vlad don't you have anything better to do than spend so much time posting on this forum? You need to get a life!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16521 on: April 08, 2017, 04:03:23 PM »
If you propose  bias, mistake, propaganda then it is up you to provide reasons to take those seriously.

It's a religious text Vlad, with unlikely events in it - that hardly makes it unique, and all the religious texts in the world can't be true. It was written some time after the reported events and the contents were selected (when the NT was put together) by those with a certain religious view. As evidence for its extraordinary claims, it really doesn't get off the ground.

Also, the idea that that is the best an omnipotent god can do to get its message across is absurd in the extreme.

I doubt you have no expertise of Gods. That is implausible.

I know something about some claims of gods, of course, but by no means all. I have yet to be presented with any credible evidence or rational argument to back up any of them - which is why I don't take them seriously.

As is your claim that I have no expertise on other gods. I await your proof for that assertion.

Your claim was that I needed expertise to dismiss a god claim - so, are you seriously saying that you have expertise in every god claim in human history that you have rejected?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16522 on: April 08, 2017, 05:38:53 PM »
Sword,

Quote
Firstly, try analysing evidence without one! Whatever worldview is employed makes assumptions about that which is being investigated.

Yes – logic. Any other “world view” is just incoherent.

Quote
A classic example of this is a court case. The prosecution has a worldview that assumes the defendant is guilty and tries to demonstrate so, the defence has a worldview that the defendant is innocent and tries to demonstrate so, the jury have a worldview that is open to either conclusion, will see what is presented and then attempt to reach a conclusion.

No. Both counsels seek to use reason and evidence and logic – they share the same “world view”, albeit that they hope it leads them to different conclusions.

Quote
If the claim is that fantastic claims require fantastic evidence then those making such a claim should be able to cite what they would consider as fantastic evidence. It is not an unreasonable request.

Yes it is because you’re shifting the burden of proof. If you think common-or-garden evidence is fine though, then you have to allow any other belief with the bar set at the same level. Qualitatively under your schema a pint left on my doorstep and a 50p left under my pillow are equally evidence for the milkman and for the Tooth Fairy respectively. If you want to posit a supernatural entity though, then it’s for you to tell us what type of evidence you'd accept for any supernatural entity.

Quote
If those doing investigations into e.g. how did life on earth start can start by assuming natural causes and explanations and then come up with their hypotheses with the evidence that they think supports them, why when arguing against religious beliefs does the same not apply?

Because naturalism entails a method to sort its hypotheses between the probably true and the probably not true. Claims of the supernatural on the other hand begin and end with the claim.

Quote
From my perspective, I see the approach taken by the more evangelical materialists here to be pretty much identical to my faith, which is why I find glaring inconsistencies.

Then you’re not looking hard enough. See above.

Quote
What they do in their faith in materialism is objected to when religious believers do the same.

That’s not true because the religious don’t do the same at all. Materialists say, “this is what’s probably true and here’s why”; the theists say, “this is what’s true because that’s my faith”. Epistemically, they’re very different.

Quote
Furthermore…

You can’t have a “furthermore” when your opening arguments have collapsed.

Quote
…in some cases what is said/done doesn’t live up to its own scientific standards and it’s one reason why in the case of some posters, there is an always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3 v 7, for my Christian brethren). Their whole approach violates properties of truth and the fact that the barrel is well and truly being scraped by referring to certain posters as lying shows how desperate things have become.

If you think some people break “scientific” (or at least logical) standards all you have to do is to demonstrate that rather then just assert it, and so far at least accusations of lying have been made in response to people lying.  If you don’t like the accusation, either refute the charge or stop lying.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16523 on: April 08, 2017, 05:43:06 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
If you are finally refuting them yes....

No. What people refute are the arguments made for Jesus, Ra, Poseidon etc. The particulars of the claims are irrelevant.

Quote
What Hillside is proposing that if Jesus is what Jesus does then there are loads of Gods claiming to be Jesus, or as Hillside bids us to believe that all the claims are the same. That isn't the case.

Why are you lying again? What Hillside actually says is that there's a finite number of bad arguments made for various deities. One of those bad arguments is the argumentum ad consequentiam you've attempted again here.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16524 on: April 08, 2017, 05:50:32 PM »
Sword,

Quote
The question still stands as to how you are going to verify it?

No, the question that stands is how you are going to verify it. It’s your claim, so the burden of proof for verification is with you.

Quote
One property of truth is that it is supported by evidence. I wouldn't have a belief in God if I didn't see anything as being evidence for Him. It's not just one thing though, otherwise if something happened to that one thing, it would fall apart.

“Evidence” and “”what Sword considers to be evidence” are not necessarily the same thing though. If I applied the same standard of evidence that you apply to “God” to, say, my faith in leprechauns would you accept that I must be right too?

Quote
I remember a poster on the BBC Christian Topic forum years ago saying something along the lines of the proof being seek and you will find, as Jesus mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount. I hadn't thought about things in that way before, but there is a sense that for Christians such as myself, this is our experience.

Sounds like a working definition of confirmation bias to me. Once you’ve decided already on the answer, there’s every chance that by seeking it you’ll find it – or rather you’ll think you’ve found it.

Quote
I know that you've mentioned about your experience when you were younger. To be honest, I've no direct answer to that. All I can say is that there have been times in my experience where at the time I don't understand, but some answers come later on. In the meantime, I have to keep on believing and trusting.

Why?
"Don't make me come down there."

God