Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

With whatever they think they’ve had an encounter with. Same as you.

Your deliberate ignorance of logic precludes you from realising that the object of the faith belief is irrelevant to epistemology of the claim.

More irrelevance.

The gods with whatever characteristics those faiths claim to be the real ones.

I look forward to you finally grasping that whatever god you think you’ve “encountered” tells you nothing about whether or not you’ve actually encountered any of them. You try this a lot – decide that the outcome is one you like, then try to back fit it to a bad argument as if it in some mysterious way that turns the bad argument into a good one.

It doesn’t.

Many thanks to you Hillside.
Slowly and surely you are building up the alternative history which Gordon refuses to supply.
When there is enough of it we will hold it up to scrutiny to see if it fits the surrounding history.
Are you refusing to acknowledge that there can be and are religions which do not offer the encounter which Jesus offers?
There is nothing about claiming that all religions offer the same encounter or even an encounter at all.
What religion do you feel offers the same encounter with God as Jesus offers?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

We really, really need a face palm emoji for stuff like this. Still, a cracking candidate for the "Fundies Say the Darndest Things" site if nothing else.

Is this what you are down to?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

It's all anyone has.

Nope it's just a bit of flippancy from somebody who is ignorant of the subject.
You spun in the words tiny numbers? and ignored communities and are spinning the term decades. It's been decades since the nineties, Hillside and yet, according to your previous statements we only have a ''folk memory'' of it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Many thanks to you Hillside.
Slowly and surely you are building up the alternative history which Gordon refuses to supply.
When there is enough of it we will hold it up to scrutiny to see if it fits the surrounding history.

What on earth do you even think you're trying to say here?

Are you refusing to acknowledge that there can be and are religions which do not offer the encounter which Jesus offers?

I refuse to accept that there are any religions that offer an encounter with a long-dead street preacher.
 

There is nothing about claiming that all religions offer the same encounter or even an encounter at all.

Way to miss the point again. Lots of people from lots of religious faiths think they have met one or more of the gods of their faiths. What they don’t do on the whole though is to encounter the gods from faiths to which they are not most enculturated. Funny that.

Thinking you’ve encountered something though tells you nothing about whether you have.

What religion do you feel offers the same genuine encounter with God as Jesus offers?

What relevance do you think that has to the argumentum ad populum fallacy you attempted? So far as I can tell, no religions – yours included – offer an actual encounter with anything rather than just their claims of one.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some kind of stranger #16716 and #16717

A noble effort indeed!! *applause*

Cheerleading SuDo?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Is this what you are down to?

Then don’t set the bar so low. “No gaps in history” eh?

Priceless!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What relevance do you think that has to the argumentum ad populum fallacy you attempted? So far as I can tell, no religions – yours included – offer an actual encounter with anything rather than just their claims of one.

Eh It isn't a counter it was an opportunity to flag up your ignorance of what you are talking about
.........and you took it.

[torridon]

I must admit that I am at a loss as to how to get through to someone who is able to deny the truth of his own ability to make conscious choices in order to fit in with current limits of human understanding.  My faith is entirely driven by the ever increasing depth of my relationship with God, but unfortunately there are no words available to describe this relationship and the amazing awareness it brings.  So I resort to trying to show that science and human logic are not at odds with Christian faith, but entirely compatible with it....

Not at odds ?  Clearly you haven't been reading this thread then.  Quite apart from the lack of any evidence for souls, angels, devils, heaven, gods, hell etc, cognitive science alone is at odds with your assertions about free will and conscious choice, suggesting as it does that our choices originate in subconscious mind and conscious awareness follows later.  Do try to keep up.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Then don’t set the bar so low. “No gaps in history” eh?

Priceless!

Are there any gaps in history? Is time and the universe mysteriously suspended until there is some kind of discovery? History is whatever happened. Whether we know what it is or not that's our problem not history's. Don't be so soft in future.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Nope it's just a bit of flippancy from somebody who is ignorant of the subject.

“The subject” doesn’t matter – what’s relevant is the broken logic you attempt to validate it.

You spun in the words tiny numbers?

No spinning. The number of people who (supposedly) made the 800 mile trip to Corinth decades later is reportedly tiny. What do you think they did – hire Express Coaches’ entire fleet? Block book EasyJet?

… and ignored communities…

What communities?

…and are spinning the term decades.

Are you saying that the gap between event and its reporting wasn’t decades?

Really?

It's been decades since the nineties, Hillside and yet, according to your previous statements we only have a ''folk memory'' of it.

Fails on so many levels. If you wanted an analogy that wasn’t a category error, you’d need to something like a hatchback full of people telling us that 20 years ago somewhere in Africa a bunch of people saw a unicorn.

By all means try again if you haven’t given up your lost cause though.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Are there any gaps in history? Is time and the universe mysteriously suspended until there is some kind of discovery? History is whatever happened. Whether we know what it is or not that's our problem not history's. Don't be so soft in future.

Why the hell would there be a "gap in history" if a past event hadn't happened? There would just be different history.

Dear god man, have a lie down or something will you?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not at odds ?  Clearly you haven't been reading this thread then.  Quite apart from the lack of any evidence for souls, angels, devils, heaven, gods, hell etc, cognitive science alone is at odds with your assertions about free will and conscious choice, suggesting as it does that our choices originate in subconscious mind and conscious awareness follows later.  Do try to keep up.

Torrid Don

This thread has been about history and the refusal of your ilk to engage with it preferring argument from disbelief.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,


Why the hell would there be a "gap in history" if a past event hadn't happened? There would just be different history.

Yes but Gordon wasn't supplying it. You have been and I congratulated you for doing so and I look forward to ''discussing'' it when the full horrors of it's inevitable crass ignorance are revealed.

[Gordon]

There are no gaps in history because history is whatever happened Gordon so if you cannot accept a given history you need to provide an alternative.

Of course there are: history depends on some kind of record of these events that can be shared. I'd imagine there are many events for which there is no historical record.

One evaluates the history thus. It has become part of an established community within living memory which has provided posterity accidentily with the method of checking it's key precepts. There are also other communities for whom the only issue is the interpretation of the epistiolary accounts.

One might also be concerned that their memories and interpretations accord with what occurred, especially where the only accounts are anecdotal and of unknown provenance, hence the need to exclude the risks of mistake, exaggeration or lies.

How successful was the principle of exposing hoaxes at the time.....not very in this case.

What would be the motivation for a hoax such as this at a time when greek philosophy was in and the prevalent religious culture was against this sort of thing.

You, on the other hand, have given nothing Gordon and that's just you ''being managerial''.

Citations to follow.

Propaganda is very useful to those promoting a cause, so the risks I've raised really can't be ignored no matter how much you try to.

[Gordon]

Citation for lifespan of conspiracies

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/math-formula-charts-the-lifespan-of-hoaxes/

None of those noted in this involved divine claims from antiquity though - perhaps you can explain how these current/recent matters are relevant.

[Gordon]

Are there any gaps in history? Is time and the universe mysteriously suspended until there is some kind of discovery? History is whatever happened. Whether we know what it is or not that's our problem not history's. Don't be so soft in future.

There is a difference though between what actually happened and what was recorded or recalled as having happened, where the latter raises three issues: the first is that some of what actually happened wasn't recorded at all, second that what happened was wrongly recorded and then that those doing the recording added material for effect (propaganda).

When these records date to decades after the events being portrayed then these risks are of obvious concern.     

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Yes but Gordon wasn't supplying it. You have been and I congratulated you for doing so and I look forward to ''discussing'' it when the full horrors of it's inevitable crass ignorance are revealed.

You've completely lost the plot now. How on earth could anyone "supply" the alternative history that would have happened if various events didn't happen?

If your grandad had broken a shoelace, so been running ten minutes late, so your granny had given up waiting under the station clock and gone home instead, and each had gone on to marry different people what alternative history could you supply for the subsequent events?

[torridon]

Torrid Don

This thread has been about history and the refusal of your ilk to engage with it preferring argument from disbelief.

I don't have an ilk, as far as I am aware

[Alan Burns]

Not at odds ?  Clearly you haven't been reading this thread then.  Quite apart from the lack of any evidence for souls, angels, devils, heaven, gods, hell etc, cognitive science alone is at odds with your assertions about free will and conscious choice, suggesting as it does that our choices originate in subconscious mind and conscious awareness follows later.  Do try to keep up.

The reality of your conscious choice is aptly demonstrated by your ability claim that cognitive science suggests that it is an illusion.  The fact that cognitive science is unable to fully define how conscious choice occurs does not prove that it does not exist.  Our demonstrable ability to make conscious choices is clear evidence of our spiritual nature which is currently beyond the realms of human understanding.

[Maeght]

The reality of your conscious choice is aptly demonstrated by your ability claim that cognitive science suggests that it is an illusion.  The fact that cognitive science is unable to fully define how conscious choice occurs does not prove that it does not exist.  Our demonstrable ability to make conscious choices is clear evidence of our spiritual nature which is currently beyond the realms of human understanding.

Still asserting that I see.

[torridon]

The reality of your conscious choice is aptly demonstrated by your ability claim that cognitive science suggests that it is an illusion.... 

No it isn't.

Were you here in my head in the 300 milliseconds or so between the origin of my choice and my subsequent personal awareness of it ?  No you weren't.  But that is broadly what the relevant science suggests and it is fairly consistent with what we have learned about the speed of thoughts generally.  I take it on board and try to understand it honestly.  You on the other hand are forever stuck with having to be a science denier, a sordid business that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

None of those noted in this involved divine claims from antiquity though - perhaps you can explain how these current/recent matters are relevant.

OK. I have said before. Divine causation cannot be established historically but a resurrection can since it would after all be a physical resurrection.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't have an ilk, as far as I am aware

It's in your subconscious.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

You've completely lost the plot now. How on earth could anyone "supply" the alternative history that would have happened if various events didn't happen?

Well the Jesus mythers have attempted it and you have too with your National theatre of Brent reduced version of the epistles and Acts of the apostles.

You're just a caricaturist in this matter IMHO.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

OK. I have said before. Divine causation cannot be established historically but a resurrection can since it would after all be a physical resurrection.

How would you propose to go about "establishing historically" a supernatural claim like a resurrection?