Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3887607 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16900 on: April 17, 2017, 08:05:55 PM »

You say sin is a dirty concept and then promptly identify three of them.

We all know the maxim of love that if you love something you let it free.

The parable of the Prodigal son I believe is a scriptural equivalent.

God wants us to come back to him that is the point of God's enduring of self alienation of the crucifixion.

No, sin is a concept that belongs to your religion. Hurting people is doing something wrong. Learn the difference.


Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16901 on: April 17, 2017, 08:13:23 PM »
Dear Vlad,

Quote
You are confusing design with how you are operating which it seems is not on all cylinders. I think the problem is with your definition of omnipotence which weirdly forbids god from creating that with any responsibility.

That old son is a bit of a kicker, we are made in Gods image, God wanted us to see how we liked it, he ( he for the sake of the children ) gave us responsibility to see how we handle it, well we have made a complete hash of it, if you have a hotline, tell him to take back control, no seriously, Trump, Putin, Brexit, Lord we get the message, sorry I forgot the Tories, how could I forget the Tories :o

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Bubbles

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16902 on: April 17, 2017, 08:13:33 PM »
Sin is that strange thing that hurts God, apparently. So much so he can't even gaze on it.

 ::)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16903 on: April 17, 2017, 08:25:25 PM »
Sin is that strange thing that hurts God, apparently. So much so he can't even gaze on it.

 ::)
A wonderful metaphor for alienation. But who is doing the alienation? and what is the solution? How does God 'sort it'?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16904 on: April 17, 2017, 08:26:54 PM »
No, sin is a concept that belongs to your religion. Hurting people is doing something wrong. Learn the difference.
It seems to me you are just using different words for it.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16905 on: April 17, 2017, 08:30:14 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
A wonderful metaphor for alienation. But who is doing the alienation? and what is the solution? How does God 'sort it'?

Probably in the same way leprechauns teach the harp to the tone deaf. It's a thorny one alright, the problems you give yourself if you close your mind just long enough to get past the reification fallacy slap bang in the middle of your thinking. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16906 on: April 17, 2017, 08:31:37 PM »
It seems to me you are just using different words for it.

No, your god is ok with slavery but objects to same bottom sex.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16907 on: April 17, 2017, 08:33:10 PM »
Vlad,

Probably in the same way leprechauns teach the harp to the tone deaf. It's a thorny one alright, the problems you give yourself if you close your mind just long enough to get past the reification fallacy slap bang in the middle of your thinking.
Anyone?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16908 on: April 17, 2017, 08:35:19 PM »
Rhi,

Quote
No, your god is ok with slavery but objects to same bottom sex.

Steady! Odd though innit, the way this god of Vlad's has pretty much the same morality as the iron-age tribal people from whom the story comes.

Funny that!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16909 on: April 17, 2017, 08:41:59 PM »
Dear Blue,

Quote
Probably in the same way leprechauns teach the harp to the tone deaf.

Really where do I sign up.

Dear Rhiannon,

Quote
No, your god is ok with slavery but objects to same bottom sex.

The old arguments are the best, oh sorry that's jokes, quick Vlad get on stage.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16910 on: April 17, 2017, 08:44:49 PM »
No, your god is ok with slavery but objects to same bottom sex.
As important as same bottom sex is, don't forget it isn't a deal breaker in the lives of manywho I think you are referring to. Secular Britain seems OK with slavery and that's after the church realised God wasn't OK with it.

It remains for antichristians though, like same bottom sex something to hit the church with when one is strawclutching......and that's about the limit of concern.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16911 on: April 17, 2017, 08:57:10 PM »
Dear Vlad,

Quote
It remains for antichristians though, like same bottom sex something to hit the church with when one is strawclutching......and that's about the limit of concern.

Straw clutching, I think not, it is a big problem, people are dying because of this, the Church needs to address this hideousness,  but can we stop saying "same bottom sex" from the sadly missed Leonard James to old Trentvoyager, it does them an injustice.

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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16912 on: April 17, 2017, 08:59:32 PM »
Dear Vlad,

Straw clutching, I think not, it is a big problem, people are dying because of this, the Church needs to address this hideousness,  but can we stop saying "same bottom sex" from the sadly missed Leonard James to old Trentvoyager, it does them an injustice.

Gonnagle.

I tried better alternatives and got frozen out by the hosting filter.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16913 on: April 17, 2017, 09:10:08 PM »

Dear Rhiannon,

The old arguments are the best, oh sorry that's jokes, quick Vlad get on stage.

Gonnagle.

Until the church sorts it then this argument will be made. But it illustrates the difference between 'sin' and doing wrong.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16914 on: April 17, 2017, 09:13:50 PM »
Dear Rhiannon,

Sorry, sometime I can sound like a girls blouse, but somethings are important, us Christians need to look deeply into what Our Lord really wants, homosexuality, for me, is not even on the agenda.


It is a non issue.

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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16915 on: April 17, 2017, 09:16:35 PM »
Dear Rhiannon,

Sorry, sometime I can sound like a girls blouse, but somethings are important, us Christians need to look deeply into what Our Lord really wants, homosexuality, for me, is not even on the agenda.


It is a non issue.

Gonnagle.

The  church was lucky I'd never become a priest, I'd have been defrocked within a year for blessing same sex unions. But until the church changes its stance on homosexuality it will struggle to get people to listen to anything it says.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16916 on: April 17, 2017, 09:24:53 PM »

Funnily enough, when you get down to it "hard to compute" is all AB has for his idiosyncratic take on consciousness. Never mind all that evidence from neuroscience, from emergence, from... etc: "That consciousness stuff looks really, really complicated to me so I refuse to accept that even a brain with trillion functional components could do it on its own.

Not just hard to compute, but impossible to define in material terms.  Conscious awareness can't be defined by material reactions alone, no matter how complex the neural network is.

As to the assumption that our apparent free will is defined by sub conscious brain activity, can you honestly claim that every posting on this forum is not consciously driven by the authors?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16917 on: April 17, 2017, 09:29:48 PM »
Dear Rhiannon,

Amen sister, we need more Priests who stand up and challenge the old out of date ways, not that I am a church goer, those church folk do my Heid in.

Gonnagle.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16918 on: April 17, 2017, 11:55:50 PM »
Conscious awareness can't be defined by material reactions alone, no matter how complex the neural network is.

Why can't it?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16919 on: April 18, 2017, 06:19:33 AM »
Not just hard to compute, but impossible to define in material terms.  Conscious awareness can't be defined by material reactions alone, no matter how complex the neural network is.

Maybe that is why talk of 'matter' is rather old hat.  Maybe to understand consciousness we need to think past mere matter and learn to think in information terms.  The leading theory in consciousness research after all is 'integrated information theory'.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16920 on: April 18, 2017, 06:50:06 AM »
I'm afraid the free will thing has been relegated by posters like yourself to talking yourselves up your own fundements and creating a homunculus.

Did that mean something in your head before you started typing?

You are confusing design with how you are operating which it seems is not on all cylinders. I think the problem is with your definition of omnipotence which weirdly forbids god from creating that with any responsibility.

Leaving aside the logically absurdities for a moment, if we had genuine responsibility (a real choice) then there wouldn't be a 100% failure. There really is no getting away from the fact that a god who condemns 100% of the people it created for not being good enough is unjust.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16921 on: April 18, 2017, 06:51:50 AM »
Not just hard to compute, but impossible to define in material terms.  Conscious awareness can't be defined by material reactions alone, no matter how complex the neural network is.

He asserted, yet again, without evidence or reasoning....
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16922 on: April 18, 2017, 08:19:39 AM »
Maybe that is why talk of 'matter' is rather old hat.  Maybe to understand consciousness we need to think past mere matter and learn to think in information terms.  The leading theory in consciousness research after all is 'integrated information theory'.
Information is not information until it is perceived.  Without conscious human perception, information is meaningless.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16923 on: April 18, 2017, 10:02:56 AM »
Dear Vlad,

Straw clutching, I think not, it is a big problem, people are dying because of this, the Church needs to address this hideousness,  but can we stop saying "same bottom sex" from the sadly missed Leonard James to old Trentvoyager, it does them an injustice.

Gonnagle.
I mention it because that's the term Rhiannon used.
Churches that are causing the death of people over this have lost there way.
On the other hand there is a habit among antichristians of appealing to some alleged flaw in a persons morality as a reason to negate any of the arguments made by them and i'm afraid it is often the homosexuality question. I feel Rhiannon turned to it here, I feel the writer of a review of Feser tries it, I feel that many pull the same stunt over Lane Craig over his comments on the slaughter of the Canaanites.

There are many people who remain Christian in spite of the issues, because at the end of the day, to make it a dealbreaker is to fail to get Christ in perspective.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 10:06:05 AM by Emergence-The musical »

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #16924 on: April 18, 2017, 10:16:31 AM »
I mention it because that's the term Rhiannon used.
Churches that are causing the death of people over this have lost there way.
On the other hand there is a habit among antichristians of appealing to some alleged flaw in a persons morality as a reason to negate any of the arguments made by them and i'm afraid it is often the homosexuality question. I feel Rhiannon turned to it here, I feel the writer of a review of Feser tries it, I feel that many pull the same stunt over Lane Craig over his comments on the slaughter of the Canaanites.

There are many people who remain Christian in spite of the issues, because at the end of the day, to make it a dealbreaker is to fail to get Christ in perspective.

It's not an excuse to turn away from anything the church says, it is a bloody good reason to. It's why I gave up my vocation, my place on church councils and eventually my membership of the CofE, long before I lost my faith. It isn't simply about homosexuality (the software filter allows me to say that at least), it is that the homosexuality issue illustrates so much about the close-mindedness, the prejudice, the sheer nastiness of the church. As you rightly say, the church recognised the wrongness of slavery in spite of it being clearly condoned in the Bible, and yet refuses to budge on the gay issue. Why do you think that is?