Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3730873 times)

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17475 on: May 02, 2017, 05:10:38 PM »
ekim,

To be musical, a leprechaun must whisper the baby's ear in ear when no-one is looking.

I am musical.

Therefore leprechauns.

I'm beginning to believe A B,  :D

ippy

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17476 on: May 02, 2017, 05:15:07 PM »
ippy,

Quote
I'm beginning to believe A B,  :D

Yikes!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17477 on: May 02, 2017, 05:41:24 PM »
I'm beginning to believe A B,  :D

ippy

Oh you poor dear, I think you better seek medical help, IMMEDIATELY! ;D

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17478 on: May 02, 2017, 06:09:08 PM »
Vlad (Retd.),

See whether you can work out where you went wrong there.

What he's actually saying is, "we do not know the answer, but it can't be an explanation that actually has no explanatory value whatever".
That's just shitshining on your part Hillside,

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17479 on: May 02, 2017, 06:11:20 PM »
Vlad (Retd.),

Quote
That's just shitshining on your part Hillside,

No, it's basic reasoning that's beyond you so you resort to insult as a smokescreen.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17480 on: May 02, 2017, 06:19:02 PM »
Hillside quotes a favourite Antitheist site:

Science is itself a process based on methodological naturalism, i.e. treating the world as if metaphysical naturalism was the case ...but without actually taking a stand on matters philosophical (outside of method). (RationalWiki)

You cannot ''treat the world'' and not be taking a philosophical stance.
Hillside this is the second time you have supported the self contradictory today.

Treat the world as if metaphysical naturalism was the case and not be taking a stand on matters philosophical!!!!!!!???

.................Deluded.  Fundey antitheists say the darndest things,
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 06:22:26 PM by Emergence-The musical »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17481 on: May 02, 2017, 06:21:35 PM »
Vlad (Retd.),

No, it's basic reasoning that's beyond you so you resort to insult as a smokescreen.
Don't tell me................ it's called ''Faecal buffing'' where you come from. Do they send them off or does a little man come round?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17482 on: May 02, 2017, 06:35:40 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Hillside quotes a favourite Antitheist site:

Science is itself a process based on methodological naturalism, i.e. treating the world as if metaphysical naturalism was the case ...but without actually taking a stand on matters philosophical (outside of method). (RationalWiki)

“Hillside” actually quoted the reference Vlad thought supported him but in fact kebabed him.

Quote
You cannot ''treat the world'' and not be taking a philosophical stance.

Of course you can. You just proceed on that basis as a matter of practical expediency with no reference to whether or not larger philosophical truths are in play. That's why your "philosophical naturalism is problematic because methodological naturalism doesn't demonstrate it" schtick collapsed in a heap.

Quote
Hillside this is the second time you have supported the self contradictory today.

He lied.

Quote
Treat the world as if metaphysical naturalism was the case and not be taking a stand on matters philosophical!!!!!!!???

Yes.

Quote
.................Deluded.  Fundey antitheists say the darndest things

It’s fundie, and your dull incomprehension is noted.

Again.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17483 on: May 02, 2017, 06:43:45 PM »
Vlad,

“Hillside” actually quoted the reference Vlad thought supported him but in fact kebabed him.

Well on reflection, it does support my case that you are conflating philosophical naturalism with methodological naturalism.

This was the actual quote from RationalWiki which supports me.

''Philosophical naturalism is the doctrine that the natural world is all there is''

That shows it isn't just my personal interpretation.
You always argue from that basis and even now try to make out that methodological naturalism proceeds from philosophical naturalism . It would be an act of folly to try, after having dug this trench and planted lovely shrubs and flowers along it, to then argue zero philosophical entailment.....Ah well.

In fact quotes support either my contention of the definition of Philosophical naturalism or your conflation of it with methodological naturalism.

I personally think that you are lucky that nobody closely inspects this stuff.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 06:56:26 PM by Emergence-The musical »

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17484 on: May 02, 2017, 06:58:47 PM »
That's just shitshining on your part Hillside,

Vlad, an assertion is an assertion is an assertion.

ippy

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17485 on: May 02, 2017, 07:04:19 PM »
Well on reflection, it does support my case that you are conflating philosophical naturalism with methodological naturalism.

This was the actual quote from RationalWiki which supports me.

''Philosophical naturalism is the doctrine that the natural world is all there is''

That shows it isn't just my personal interpretation.
You always argue from that basis and even now try to make out that methodological naturalism proceeds from philosophical naturalism . It would be an act of folly to try, after having dug this trench and planted lovely shrubs and flowers along it, to then argue zero philosophical entailment.....Ah well.

In fact quotes support either my contention of the definition of Philosophical naturalism or your conflation of it with methodological naturalism.

I personally think that you are lucky that nobody closely inspects this stuff.

I would like to propose a new philosophical argument. I would like it to be known as Stephen's trilemma. Which is a variation on previous work reported by Lewis et al.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis's_trilemma

Vlad either deceived mankind by conscious fraud, or He was Himself deluded and self-deceived, or He was Ignorant of basic logic. There is no getting out of this trilemma. It is inexorable.


Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17486 on: May 02, 2017, 07:14:30 PM »
That's just shitshining on your part Hillside,

FFS.

It really isn't you know. It is just a case of saying that although we don't have an explanation that is logical and sound we should just go for one that some other person proposes because it is an "explanation" even though we know it is neither logical and/or sound.

Better just to say don't know.

Very very basic stuff.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17487 on: May 02, 2017, 07:18:42 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Well on reflection, it does support my case…

So having tried an ad hom (“Hillside quotes a favourite Antitheist site”), now you’ve decided that you like it after all because you think it supports you?

You really are some piece of work aren’t you.

Quote
…that you are conflating philosophical naturalism with methodological naturalism.

Why are you still lying about that given that I’ve actually consistently said pretty much the opposite of it?

Quote
This was the actual quote from RationalWiki which supports me.

''Philosophical naturalism is the doctrine that the natural world is all there is''

Ah, the old scam of selective quoting. Now tell us what the rest of it says. You know, stuff like this:

“Science is itself a process based on methodological naturalism, i.e. treating the world as if metaphysical naturalism was the case ...but without actually taking a stand on matters philosophical (outside of method).”

Quote
That shows it isn't just my personal interpretation.

He lied.

Again.

Quote
You always argue from that basis and even now try to make out that methodological naturalism proceeds from philosophical naturalism .

Why are you lying again? Is the expression “as if” really too difficult for you to comprehend?

Really?

Quote
Only a fool would try, after having dug this trench and planted lovely shrubs and flowers along it, to then argue zero philosophical entailment.....Ah well.

He lied.

Again.

That “as if” really has got you foxed hasn’t it.

Quote
In fact quotes support either my contention of the definition of Philosophical naturalism or your conflation of it with methodological naturalism

He lied.

Again.

So here’s the plan: if you think you can respond to what’s actually being said without insult or lying, I’ll respond. If you carry on as you are though, you’re on your own.

I’m not expecting to have to reply again any time soon.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17488 on: May 02, 2017, 07:27:31 PM »
FFS.

It really isn't you know. It is just a case of saying that although we don't have an explanation that is logical and sound we should just go for one that some other person proposes because it is an "explanation" even though we know it is neither logical and/or sound.

Better just to say don't know.

Very very basic stuff.
Your approach strikes me of you saying souls are illogical and expecting assent.
You must have a reason for asserting illogicality.....let's have it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 08:33:15 PM by Emergence-The musical »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17489 on: May 02, 2017, 07:33:22 PM »
Vlad,

So having tried an ad hom (“Hillside quotes a favourite Antitheist site”), now you’ve decided that you like it after all because you think it supports you?

You really are some piece of work aren’t you.

Why are you still lying about that given that I’ve actually consistently said pretty much the opposite of it?

Ah, the old scam of selective quoting.
Well I selected it ...but as I was after a definition of Philosophical naturalism and the quote supplies it, your objections are ridiculous. Considering I bid readers read the whole thing and gave the reference and then you gave selective quotes.....

.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 08:32:38 PM by Emergence-The musical »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17490 on: May 02, 2017, 07:42:36 PM »
Etienne,

Quote
FFS.

It really isn't you know. It is just a case of saying that although we don't have an explanation that is logical and sound we should just go for one that some other person proposes because it is an "explanation" even though we know it is neither logical and/or sound.

Better just to say don't know.

Very very basic stuff.

Quite so. If you wanted to gussy up the white noise of "soul" into an explanation, you'd have all your work ahead of you: a coherent definition; a means of distinguishing the claim from just guessing - ie, evidence of some kind for its existence, its modus operandi etc; resolution of the "not deterministic/not random" problem etc.

That's why "not souls" is fine - "soul" is just an incoherent mess of an answer so it disqualifies itself as even a possible explanation a priori
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 07:46:28 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17491 on: May 02, 2017, 10:46:35 PM »
I do not know that it is the case that only humans can do this.

How do you know, or is this just another argument from ignorance.

I do not think there is evidence of any animal being able to analyze and deduce that things react according to scientific laws, so I may well be correct in saying that perception of reactions (in the sense that they are recognised and categorised as reactions) can only be done by humans.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17492 on: May 02, 2017, 10:51:15 PM »
I do not think there is evidence of any animal being able to analyze and deduce that things react according to scientific laws, so I may well be correct in saying that perception of reactions (in the sense that they are recognised and categorised as reactions) can only be done by humans.
previously you didn't state this as a possibility but as an absolute, are you saying that didn't mean to say that 'only humans can do this'?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 11:11:06 PM by Nearly Sane »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17493 on: May 03, 2017, 04:34:16 AM »
Of course I can't explain this because I can't see the full picture.  But the reality is that we live in a world where suffering and pain exist, and there will be suffering and pain in everyone's life.  However if we were to be born straight into a world without pain, would we just take everything for granted and become self centred, because we have no need of anyone's help?  If a child was born completely self sufficient, would the loving parent-child relationship exist?  Would any love exist?  The question of suffering is a very big topic and has been well discussed over time, and it would be very naive to use suffering as a reason not to believe in God.  CS Lewis devotes a whole book on the subject in "The Problem of Pain".  And we need to remember that Jesus suffered torture and death in order to redeem our souls.
Will there be suffering and pain in Heaven?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17494 on: May 03, 2017, 08:28:45 AM »
Will there be suffering and pain in Heaven?
No
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17495 on: May 03, 2017, 09:08:58 AM »
No

But in #17449 you seemed to recognise that without pain there can be no pleasure, without hatred there can be no love.  If heaven is a place without pain and suffering then it is also a place without happiness.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17496 on: May 03, 2017, 09:16:06 AM »
No
Will love exist there then? Using your own logic, it would seem doubtful!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17497 on: May 03, 2017, 10:03:24 AM »
Heaven has always presented a big hole in the Christian edifice, as it appears that God can create a place free of pain and suffering and evil.   However, for some reason, it's not good enough, so we have to have a world full of pain and suffering and evil.   But cheer up, it's your fault.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17498 on: May 03, 2017, 10:14:52 AM »
But in #17449 you seemed to recognise that without pain there can be no pleasure, without hatred there can be no love.  If heaven is a place without pain and suffering then it is also a place without happiness.
But having experienced the life on earth with all its pain, suffering, good, evil, love, hatred, joy and happiness, the souls in heaven will no doubt have a richer appreciation of what heaven can offer.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17499 on: May 03, 2017, 10:18:02 AM »
But having experienced the life on earth with all its pain, suffering, good, evil, love, hatred, joy and happiness, the souls in heaven will no doubt have a richer appreciation of what heaven can offer.
How does a child that dies in childbirth have that experience?