Searching for GOD...

[wigginhall]

And this amazing revelation is achieved by the aimless, chaotic, inherently destructive forces of nature.
 

Somebody should really introduce you to the concepts of entropy and low entropy.   No, on second thoughts, let's not go there.  Your monumental incredulity will defeat all comers.

[Sebastian Toe]

The awareness of the human soul will no longer be restricted to a few brain cells in the physical body.  The awareness we will have in heaven will be far beyond anything we can ever imagine on this earth.  We will be in our spiritual home.

Do you think that you will be aware of everything all at once?

[Alan Burns]

Somebody should really introduce you to the concepts of entropy and low entropy.   No, on second thoughts, let's not go there.  Your monumental incredulity will defeat all comers.

I would argue that the opposing view is monumentally optimistic.

[Alan Burns]

Do you think that you will be aware of everything all at once?

Our awareness will certainly increase, and I believe that awareness of God's love will be truly overwhelming.

[torridon]

I would argue that the opposing view is monumentally optimistic.

Well you'd be wrong.  Optimism has naff all to do with it.

[Sebastian Toe]

Our awareness will certainly increase, and I believe that awareness of God's love will be truly overwhelming.

Overwhelming to the exclusion of everything else?

[ippy]

Our awareness will certainly increase, and I believe that awareness of God's love will be truly overwhelming.

Just don't let it worry you to much A B.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Well you'd be wrong.  Optimism has naff all to do with it.

The optimism comes in the assumption that every incremental beneficial mutation required to build the amazing complexity you perceive in your body was achieved by random, purposeless, unguided forces of nature.  The truth is that, even with the right ingredients, random forces could never produce anything but an increasingly chaotic goo.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The optimism comes in the assumption that every incremental beneficial mutation required to build the amazing complexity you perceive in your body was achieved by random, purposeless, unguided forces of nature.  The truth is that, even with the right ingredients, random forces could never produce anything but an increasingly chaotic goo.

Ooh, it's Douglas Adams' puddle time already.

This only makes sense if you just assume that you were the end game all along. I wonder if weird aliens on far-distant planets also capable only of very poor thinking say the same thing?

Anyways, as always you have your terms backwards - the "monumental optimism" is thinking that there's be a "heaven" with a cuddly god and endless supplies of pizza; the hard-nosed realism on the other hand is relying instead on logic and evidence to model the world.   

[Alan Burns]

This only makes sense if you just assume that you were the end game all along.

And how can you assume that you are not the end game?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

And how can you assume that you are not the end game?

Actually for several reasons, but what you're attempting here is called circular reasoning. At the same time you're trying to argue that our complexity is evidence for "God", and that this God wanted us to be the end game all along. You can have either as your premise if you really want to, but not both to demonstrate each other.   

[BeRational]

And how can you assume that you are not the end game?

Because that would be foolish!

As ever you fail to understand the default position.

To think we are the end game, you have to demonstrate it, not assume it.

[Sebastian Toe]

The awareness of the human soul will no longer be restricted to a few brain cells in the physical body.  .

What about memories? Once in Heaven, from where does your soul access, store and retrieve them?

[torridon]

The optimism comes in the assumption that every incremental beneficial mutation required to build the amazing complexity you perceive in your body was achieved by random, purposeless, unguided forces of nature.  The truth is that, even with the right ingredients, random forces could never produce anything but an increasingly chaotic goo.

I still don't see where optimism fits into that. The theory of evolution by natural selection describes observed biological processes that lead to the diversification of life forms. What has optimism got to do with that ?

[floo]

Even if an intelligent designer creator everything, the less than credible Biblical god, doesn't seem to be a likely candidate for the job.

[torridon]

And how can you assume that you are not the end game?

For the same reason we do not just assume the sun moves across the sky because it is being pulled by a team of invisible pixies.  We cannot just assume things with no justification.

[Gordon]

The optimism comes in the assumption that every incremental beneficial mutation required to build the amazing complexity you perceive in your body was achieved by random, purposeless, unguided forces of nature.

Can't see what optimism has to do with anything: the evolutionary cookie has crumbled in various ways (there are us humans, but then there are also rattlesnakes and kangaroos), and of course the cookie continues to crumble (albeit slowly).

The truth is that, even with the right ingredients, random forces could never produce anything but an increasingly chaotic goo.

Which isn't 'the truth' at all. You use 'random' as a pejorative but evolution isn't just 'random': for example, felines aren't suddenly (e.g. 'randomly') going to start evolving gills or wings.

I can't see how misrepresenting or misunderstanding evolution helps you with your 'God' claim since all you are doing is offering a fallacious argument from ignorance (on top of your normal ubiquitous personal incredulity).   

[wigginhall]

Well, AB is right that random forces could not produce various forms of life, but then nobody has ever suggested that, except assorted creationists, who use it as a straw man.   As before, there's no point in pointing out to AB how evolution actually works, as his deflector shield is set to Max. 

[Alan Burns]

I still don't see where optimism fits into that. The theory of evolution by natural selection describes observed biological processes that lead to the diversification of life forms. What has optimism got to do with that ?

Observed biological processes show that natural selection can act as a fine tuning process to provide benefits to something which is already complex, but it does not show evidence of being capable of creating new complex features, such as the property of conscious awareness.  The optimism comes in assuming that the beneficial mutations needed for survival occur without any intelligently driven divine intervention, and that survival alone is a sufficient objective to generate all the multitude of complex features in us humans, such as the capacity to believe in God.

[Alan Burns]

What about memories? Once in Heaven, from where does your soul access, store and retrieve them?

We won't find that out until we get there.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Observed biological processes show that natural selection can act as a fine tuning process to provide benefits to something which is already complex, but it does not show evidence of being capable of creating new complex features, such as the property of conscious awareness.

Are you deliberately lying here, or are you genuinely that ignorant of the evidence that supports the ToE?

The optimism comes in assuming that the beneficial mutations needed for survival occur without any intelligently driven divine intervention, and that survival alone is a sufficient objective to generate all the multitude of complex features in us humans, such as the capacity to believe in God.

That's not optimism, it's realism - as you'd know if you knew the first thing about the subject you just dismissed.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

We won't find that out until we get there.

That's "unless and until" not "until", and it seems you don't know anything at all about the claims you presume to tell others are true.

Does that not even give you pause?

Anything?

[Gordon]

Observed biological processes show that natural selection can act as a fine tuning process to provide benefits to something which is already complex, but it does not show evidence of being capable of creating new complex features, such as the property of conscious awareness.  The optimism comes in assuming that the beneficial mutations needed for survival occur without any intelligently driven divine intervention, and that survival alone is a sufficient objective to generate all the multitude of complex features in us humans, such as the capacity to believe in God.

Alan

This is just a jumble of fallacies: there seems little point in listing them since you seem immune to reason when it comes to your 'God'.

How do you explain that some of us lack 'the capacity to believe in God'. That some of us clearly don't would seem to contradict your implication that humans have this capacity - this one certainly doesn't!

[Alan Burns]

For the same reason we do not just assume the sun moves across the sky because it is being pulled by a team of invisible pixies.  We cannot just assume things with no justification.

I would say that our spiritual awareness and capacity to believe in God are sufficient evidence to show that we are not here by accident, but are what God intended us to be.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

Love this,

As you've been given those logical steps countless times, there probably isn't much point in doing it again. Tell you what though, I'll give you a step-by-step guide so in future you can work it out for yourself:

Step 1: Look up in any reputable dictionary the term "atheism".

Step 2. Remember the answer to Step 1, and promise yourself not to lie about that again.

Step 3: Write down the logical steps that validate your a-leprechaunism.

Step 4: In the document you've created, when the word "leprechaun" appears replace it with "God".

Step 5: Whenever you have a rush of blood to the head and think you've found a cogent argument for "God", apply to it Step 4 in reverse. If it works just as well for leprechauns, it's probably a bad argument.

Step 6: Give yourself a pat on the back for finally getting it, and maybe ease off a little now on the Richard Dawkins man crush.

You're welcome!

And I had you down as a thinking man, step one should read, look up the history of the word, see this is where atheists don't engage ( not all ) they are stuck in the 21st century, check out the history of the word atheist and then the history of the word Myth.

Gonnagle.