Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3730336 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17600 on: May 05, 2017, 05:25:39 PM »
Your conscious awareness has no control.  Nothing has control apart from the uncontrollable deterministic forces of nature.

and we have come to understand through research that conscious awareness has no control anyway.  Research reveals that it is the subconscious mind that calls the shots, the conscious mind only gets to know about things later, as if an afterthought.  So, taking conscious awareness and labelling it as 'soul' is I'm afraid is only trading on a misunderstanding in the first place, even if the idea of 'soul' had any real explanatory value to bring to the party, which it doesn't.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17601 on: May 05, 2017, 05:43:57 PM »
torri,

Quote
Can you say where the 'you' is ? The soul concept has no detail to back it up anyway, so the choice is between a scientific rationale with some detail although no 'material definition' according to you, and a soul which has no actual definition at all.  Could you tell us for example where exactly your soul is located ? Could you tell us what it is made of and how it interacts with a body ? At least science is attempting to investigate the phenomenology of mind using empirical methods.  It is difficult to say exactly where a sense of self is located and that observation is consistent with it being an emergent phenomenon.  Could we say exactly where the intelligence that emerges in a bee swarm is located ?  Not easy is it, but 'not easy' is preferable to magic explanations which are really just barriers to understanding. I would regard the sense of self as a proprioceptive projection, and cases where people have an out of body experience are instances of that proprioception malfunctioning.

Yes, yes that’s all well and good all that logic and evidence and stuff but what you’re forgetting here is that Alan has faith. Yes indeed, and not just any old faith either – oh no – he has deep faith, faith so deep in fact that that aren’t even any words for how deep it is! So, you know, that must be the gold standard of faith or something right, and then…wait for it…it gets even better than that! See, not only is he right but he knows he’s right – really, really knows it in fact. How do we know this? Simple really – he “trusts” that he’s right.

Proof positive then I’d say. Are we done here now then? Should we tell all those labs and research facilities and university departments to pack up shop and go to the beach now that Alan’s cracked it all? 

Makes sense to me. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17602 on: May 05, 2017, 06:02:47 PM »
AB,

Deeper than any reasoning or evidence there ever could be that showed that faith to be misplaced?
Well, that's not likely to include the kind of casuistry you have been serving up lately............

That's two Margheritas, 'Slaw and a specious argument to go.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17603 on: May 05, 2017, 06:07:43 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Well, that's not likely to include the kind of casuistry you have been serving up lately............

Should I live in hope that you're about to tell what this supposed casuistry was, or are you in standard Vlad hit and run assertion only mode this evening?

Quote
That's two Margheritas, 'Slaw and a specious argument to go.

You'll have to collect I'm afraid – we don't deliver under bridges.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17604 on: May 05, 2017, 07:07:55 PM »
Belief is not a choice.

I entirely agree.  In all honesty we can't just choose what to believe because it is to our liking.  We can only believe what we sincerely believe to be the truth.

Why should anyone choose to believe in a religion which requires us to:
Love our enemies
Do good to those who hate us.
Pay it one tenth of our earnings.
Spend lots of valuable time in prayer and worship.
Confess all your wrongdoings to a stranger in a box.
Believe in such things as a virgin birth and resurrection.
Adhere to severe restrictions in what you can do in your life.
Suffer persecution and ridicule ....
I could go on
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 10:35:50 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17605 on: May 05, 2017, 08:09:43 PM »
I entirely agree.  In all honesty we can't just choose what to believe because it is to our liking.  We can only believe what we sincerely believe to be the truth.

Why should anyone choose to believe in a religion which requires us to:
Love our enemies
Do good to those who hate us.
Pay it one tenth of our earnings.
Spend lots of valuable time in prayer and worship.
Confess all your wrongdoings to a stranger in a box.
Believe in such things as a virgin birth and resurrection.
Suffer persecution and ridicule ....
I could go on

None of which addresses whether or not certain aspects of belief: those unique to your religion, such as miracles involving dead people not staying dead, can justifiably be believed - I don't think they can.

That the particular aspects of your religion you noted, not all of which are unique to your religion, appeal to you on a personal basis doesn't justify your belief that certain of your religious claims are factually true: especially given the arguments you advance for them.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17606 on: May 06, 2017, 07:25:25 AM »
I entirely agree.  In all honesty we can't just choose what to believe because it is to our liking.  We can only believe what we sincerely believe to be the truth.

Why should anyone choose to believe in a religion which requires us to:
Love our enemies
Do good to those who hate us.
Pay it one tenth of our earnings.
Spend lots of valuable time in prayer and worship.
Confess all your wrongdoings to a stranger in a box.
Believe in such things as a virgin birth and resurrection.
Adhere to severe restrictions in what you can do in your life.
Suffer persecution and ridicule ....
I could go on

Well we could be generous here and mark that up as a small positive step up and lets hope you don't revert to your previous claims that belief is a choice. We are not free, we are products of our past and our environment, fashioned by these influences; understanding  this demonstrates the banality of your oft repeated claims that our soul is in mortal danger if we do not believe the correct beliefs, as if an omnibenign god is going to discriminate to favour christians over non-christians when clearly people have no free choice in matters of belief.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17607 on: May 06, 2017, 07:54:27 AM »
Vlad,

Should I live in hope that you're about to tell what this supposed casuistry was, or are you in standard Vlad hit and run assertion only mode this evening?

Somebody who posts as often and as extensively as I do cannot be really guilty of ''hit and run assertion'' Hillside.
You on the other hand merely invite people to admire the beauty of your latest gyration....That's spin in common parlance.

Why not submit ourselves to the conditions of the formal debate?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17608 on: May 06, 2017, 08:42:15 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Somebody who posts as often and as extensively as I do cannot be really guilty of ''hit and run assertion'' Hillside.

Of course you can – that’s exactly what you do, leavened by misrepresentations of the arguments that undo you. You’ve rarely if ever attempted an argument of any kind for your opinions and assertions.

You’ve just done it again here for example – accused someone of casuistry, and then gone all quiet when asked to demonstrate the claim.

Quote
You on the other hand merely invite people to admire the beauty of your latest gyration....That's spin in common parlance.

And again here. What I actually do is to argue – just calling it “spin” doesn’t make it so.

Quote
Why not submit ourselves to the conditions of the formal debate?

Firstly because of your relentless mendacity, but secondly because you have nothing to say. However “extensively” you’ve posted your entire position so far as I can tell is that you had a really strong personal feeling one day that “God” had paid little old you a visit.

And that’s it.

No explanation of what this “God” might be.

No explanation of how anyone should distinguish your claims from guessing, mistake etc.

No grasp even of the meaning of the terms you routinely misuse and abuse.

What then exactly do you think you’d have to contribute to a debate? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17609 on: May 06, 2017, 09:07:02 AM »
I entirely agree.  In all honesty we can't just choose what to believe because it is to our liking.  We can only believe what we sincerely believe to be the truth.

Why should anyone choose to believe in a religion which requires us to:
Love our enemies
Do good to those who hate us.
Pay it one tenth of our earnings.
Spend lots of valuable time in prayer and worship.
Confess all your wrongdoings to a stranger in a box.
Believe in such things as a virgin birth and resurrection.
Adhere to severe restrictions in what you can do in your life.
Suffer persecution and ridicule ....
I could go on

A pity the Biblical god doesn't practise what it preaches! :o

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17610 on: May 06, 2017, 09:21:52 AM »
Vlad,

Of course you can – that’s exactly what you do, leavened by misrepresentations of the arguments that undo you. You’ve rarely if ever attempted an argument of any kind for your opinions and assertions.

You’ve just done it again here for example – accused someone of casuistry, and then gone all quiet when asked to demonstrate the claim.

Your argument concerning the interpretation of Rationalwikis definition of Philosophical naturalism is a case in point in which you ignored the definition given and then told us what it said about methodological materialism in a concerted attempt to once again confuse and conflate the two.

It's all there Hillside you have done it several times.

Your role here is just one huge invitation to gut antitheists to leave the technical hand waving to your good self.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17611 on: May 06, 2017, 09:26:43 AM »
A pity the Biblical god doesn't practise what it preaches! :o
Well i'm afraid the new atheist secular miracle which is the UK just keeps letting itself down in a massive failure of humanism.

Apparently the UK is more than happy to see the idea of serving others go down the pan in order to prove Darwin right.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17612 on: May 06, 2017, 10:39:42 AM »
Well we could be generous here and mark that up as a small positive step up and lets hope you don't revert to your previous claims that belief is a choice. We are not free, we are products of our past and our environment, fashioned by these influences; understanding  this demonstrates the banality of your oft repeated claims that our soul is in mortal danger if we do not believe the correct beliefs, as if an omnibenign god is going to discriminate to favour christians over non-christians when clearly people have no free choice in matters of belief.
But we do have the ability to choose to ignore evidence which might take us in a direction we do not wish to go.  I fear that some non believers cherry pick the evidence that suits what they want to believe and deliberately ignore or try to falsify any evidence to the contrary.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17613 on: May 06, 2017, 10:53:28 AM »
Vlad,

You may recall that I just explained that one reason a debate would be impossible is your relentless mendacity. Right on cue, you then post this:

Quote
Your argument concerning the interpretation of Rationalwikis definition of Philosophical naturalism is a case in point in which you ignored the definition given and then told us what it said about methodological materialism in a concerted attempt to once again confuse and conflate the two.

Do you see the problem? “The definition given” wasn’t just your quote mining – it included specifically the explanation that what you thought you meant by “philosophical naturalism” was in fact “metaphysical naturalism”, and moreover that methodological materialism takes no position on either philosophical or metaphysical naturalism. That's why your, "philosophical naturalism is problematic because methodological naturalism doesn't demonstrate it" mantra is so hopeless. Methodological naturalism merely proceeds “as if”: “Assuming naturalism in working methods as the current paradigm, without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment, is called methodological naturalism. The subject matter here is a philosophy of acquiring knowledge based on an assumed paradigm.

(I’ll leave aside for now that, even if you hadn’t got your terminology wrong, all you have at best is a straw man in any case because no-one here subscribes to the metaphysical naturalism position you keep trying to pin on us. Just stick with the methodological naturalism definition in the RationalWiki article you thought supported you but that actually falsified you and you’ll at least me on more honest – and relevant – ground.)

You may also blush to recall that you tried to argue (well, assert at least) that “science without the data” is the same thing as science!

Quote
It's all there Hillside you have done it several times.

Been right? Yes I know – more than several in fact.

Quote
Your role here is just one huge invitation to gut antitheists to leave the technical hand waving to your good self.

My “role” here is to use argument and reason to engage with people who are honest and who have something of interest to say.

So that’s you out on both counts.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17614 on: May 06, 2017, 10:54:46 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Well i'm afraid the new atheist secular miracle which is the UK just keeps letting itself down in a massive failure of humanism.

Apparently the UK is more than happy to see the idea of serving others go down the pan in order to prove Darwin right.

NURSE - COME QUICK!!!! HE'S FROTHING AT THE MOUTH AGAIN!!!!!!!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17615 on: May 06, 2017, 10:59:07 AM »
But we do have the ability to choose to ignore evidence which might take us in a direction we do not wish to go.  I fear that some non believers cherry pick the evidence that suits what they want to believe and deliberately ignore or try to falsify any evidence to the contrary.

But you ignore all the evidence that conscious thought is produced solely by the brain.

You have no evidence of a soul yet still assert it exists.

Can you not see that you are the one at fault?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17616 on: May 06, 2017, 11:03:50 AM »
But we do have the ability to choose to ignore evidence which might take us in a direction we do not wish to go.

Depends on what is being presented as being evidence in the first place, and then there is the risk in what you say here that if you've already decided which 'direction' suits you then your ability to both identify credible evidence and assess any evidence that is contrary to your preferred 'direction' of travel may be compromised. 
 
Quote
I fear that some non believers cherry pick the evidence that suits what they want to believe and deliberately ignore or try to falsify any evidence to the contrary.

Don't be silly: picking you guys up on fallacies or asking you how you've excluded risks involving human artifice doesn't necessarily involve evidence, and especially so if there is none presented that stands scrutiny: the obvious example being what method(s) should be used to scrutinise the supernatural claims you cite in support of your God (such as so-called miracles). 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17617 on: May 06, 2017, 11:06:47 AM »
Vlad,

You may recall that I just explained that one reason a debate would be impossible is your relentless mendacity. Right on cue, you then post this:

Do you see the problem? “The definition given” wasn’t just your quote mining – it included specifically the explanation that what you thought you meant by “philosophical naturalism” was in fact “metaphysical naturalism”, and moreover that methodological materialism takes no position on either philosophical or metaphysical naturalism. That's why your, "philosophical naturalism is problematic because methodological naturalism doesn't demonstrate it" mantra is so hopeless. Methodological naturalism merely proceeds “as if”: “Assuming naturalism in working methods as the current paradigm, without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment, is called methodological naturalism. The subject matter here is a philosophy of acquiring knowledge based on an assumed paradigm.


You keep avoiding the first sentence of the article where it defines Philosophical Naturalism.

Why can you not bring yourself to quote it?

Well we know the answer to that.

Show us all you are not trying to handwave by quoting it here and now.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17618 on: May 06, 2017, 11:29:52 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
You keep avoiding the first sentence of the article where it defines Philosophical Naturalism.

Why do you lie so much do you think? I'm the one who says you need to look at the thing in the round - rather than just quote mine the bit that suits you, look at the qualifiers and clarifications that follow. 

Quote
Why can you not bring yourself to quote it?

Becasue that would be quote mining.

Quote
Well we know the answer to that.

One of us does anyway.

Quote
Show us all you are not trying to handwave by quoting it here and now.

That's not what "handwaving" means, and here it is:

"In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]

"Naturalism can intuitively be separated into an ontological and a methodological component."[3] "Ontological" refers to the philosophical study of the nature of reality. Some philosophers equate naturalism with materialism. For example, philosopher Paul Kurtz argues that nature is best accounted for by reference to material principles. These principles include mass, energy, and other physical and chemical properties accepted by the scientific community. Further, this sense of naturalism holds that spirits, deities, and ghosts are not real and that there is no "purpose" in nature. Such an absolute belief in naturalism is commonly referred to as metaphysical naturalism.[4]

Assuming naturalism in working methods as the current paradigm, without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment, is called methodological naturalism.[5] The subject matter here is a philosophy of acquiring knowledge based on an assumed paradigm.

With the exception of pantheists—who believe that Nature and God are one and the same thing—theists challenge the idea that nature contains all of reality. According to some theists, natural laws may be viewed as so-called secondary causes of god(s)
.

In the 20th century, Willard Van Orman Quine, George Santayana, and other philosophers argued that the success of naturalism in science meant that scientific methods should also be used in philosophy. Science and philosophy are said to form a continuum, according to this view."

There's more to follow that falsifies you too, but there's more than enough here to do the job.

So what do we know now then?

First, that what you actually meant all this time was "metaphysical naturalism" (sometimes also referred to as "extreme physicalism").

Second, that metaphysical naturalism (as it's properly called) isn't problematic "because methodological naturalism doesn't demonstrate it" as you endlessly assert. The arguments for it don't rely on methodological naturalism at all, and methodological naturalism takes no position on it - it just treats it as an "as if" as a working assumption.

Third, that no-one here (least of all me) subscribes to metaphysical naturalism in any case - it always was and continues to be a huge straw man of your own devising in which you're so heavily invested that you can't find a way to back out of it despite the dishonesty that requires.

What does that say about you do you think? 
 

« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 11:35:36 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17619 on: May 06, 2017, 11:36:08 AM »
But we do have the ability to choose to ignore evidence which might take us in a direction we do not wish to go.  I fear that some non believers cherry pick the evidence that suits what they want to believe and deliberately ignore or try to falsify any evidence to the contrary.
Do any of the non believers on here lie in this way?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17620 on: May 06, 2017, 11:38:30 AM »
NS,

Quote
Do any of the non believers on here lie in this way?
Quote

None that I've seen. Ironically though, it describes well what AB and others here do.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17621 on: May 06, 2017, 11:52:25 AM »
None that I've seen. Ironically though, it describes well what AB and others here do.

As you know, I disagree with by this characterisation of AB.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17622 on: May 06, 2017, 12:07:28 PM »
Vlad,

Why do you lie so much do you think? I'm the one who says you need to look at the thing in the round - rather than just quote mine the bit that suits you, look at the qualifiers and clarifications that follow. 

Becasue that would be quote mining.

One of us does anyway.

That's not what "handwaving" means, and here it is:

"In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]

"Naturalism can intuitively be separated into an ontological and a methodological component."[3] "Ontological" refers to the philosophical study of the nature of reality. Some philosophers equate naturalism with materialism. For example, philosopher Paul Kurtz argues that nature is best accounted for by reference to material principles. These principles include mass, energy, and other physical and chemical properties accepted by the scientific community. Further, this sense of naturalism holds that spirits, deities, and ghosts are not real and that there is no "purpose" in nature. Such an absolute belief in naturalism is commonly referred to as metaphysical naturalism.[4]

Assuming naturalism in working methods as the current paradigm, without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment, is called methodological naturalism.[5] The subject matter here is a philosophy of acquiring knowledge based on an assumed paradigm.

With the exception of pantheists—who believe that Nature and God are one and the same thing—theists challenge the idea that nature contains all of reality. According to some theists, natural laws may be viewed as so-called secondary causes of god(s)
.

In the 20th century, Willard Van Orman Quine, George Santayana, and other philosophers argued that the success of naturalism in science meant that scientific methods should also be used in philosophy. Science and philosophy are said to form a continuum, according to this view."

There's more to follow that falsifies you too, but there's more than enough here to do the job.

So what do we know now then?

First, that what you actually meant all this time was "metaphysical naturalism" (sometimes also referred to as "extreme physicalism").

Second, that metaphysical naturalism (as it's properly called) isn't problematic "because methodological naturalism doesn't demonstrate it" as you endlessly assert. The arguments for it don't rely on methodological naturalism at all, and methodological naturalism takes no position on it - it just treats it as an "as if" as a working assumption.

Third, that no-one here (least of all me) subscribes to metaphysical naturalism in any case - it always was and continues to be a huge straw man of your own devising in which you're so heavily invested that you can't find a way to back out of it despite the dishonesty that requires.

What does that say about you do you think?
My original post this morning was about your treatment of the rationalwiki quote and definition of Philosophical Naturalism. What are you quoting? Something different?
Furthermore you are giving your commentary of it. In fact your reply is heavy on your commentary.

Stop avoiding and bring yourself to quote the rationalwiki definition of philosophical naturalism.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17623 on: May 06, 2017, 12:17:59 PM »
Vlad,

Why do you lie so much do you think? I'm the one who says you need to look at the thing in the round - rather than just quote mine the bit that suits you, look at the qualifiers and clarifications that follow. 

Becasue that would be quote mining.

One of us does anyway.

That's not what "handwaving" means, and here it is:

"In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]

"Naturalism can intuitively be separated into an ontological and a methodological component."[3] "Ontological" refers to the philosophical study of the nature of reality. Some philosophers equate naturalism with materialism. For example, philosopher Paul Kurtz argues that nature is best accounted for by reference to material principles. These principles include mass, energy, and other physical and chemical properties accepted by the scientific community. Further, this sense of naturalism holds that spirits, deities, and ghosts are not real and that there is no "purpose" in nature. Such an absolute belief in naturalism is commonly referred to as metaphysical naturalism.[4]

Assuming naturalism in working methods as the current paradigm, without the unfounded consideration of naturalism as an absolute truth with philosophical entailment, is called methodological naturalism.[5] The subject matter here is a philosophy of acquiring knowledge based on an assumed paradigm.

With the exception of pantheists—who believe that Nature and God are one and the same thing—theists challenge the idea that nature contains all of reality. According to some theists, natural laws may be viewed as so-called secondary causes of god(s)
.

In the 20th century, Willard Van Orman Quine, George Santayana, and other philosophers argued that the success of naturalism in science meant that scientific methods should also be used in philosophy. Science and philosophy are said to form a continuum, according to this view."

There's more to follow that falsifies you too, but there's more than enough here to do the job.

So what do we know now then?

First, that what you actually meant all this time was "metaphysical naturalism" (sometimes also referred to as "extreme physicalism").

Second, that metaphysical naturalism (as it's properly called) isn't problematic "because methodological naturalism doesn't demonstrate it" as you endlessly assert. The arguments for it don't rely on methodological naturalism at all, and methodological naturalism takes no position on it - it just treats it as an "as if" as a working assumption.

Third, that no-one here (least of all me) subscribes to metaphysical naturalism in any case - it always was and continues to be a huge straw man of your own devising in which you're so heavily invested that you can't find a way to back out of it despite the dishonesty that requires.

What does that say about you do you think?
methodological naturalism has no philosophical entailment.
Any definition you have given contains philosophical entailment.
There is no getting away therefore from your conflation and confusion of Methodological naturalism and philosophical naturalism.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17624 on: May 06, 2017, 12:20:40 PM »
But you ignore all the evidence that conscious thought is produced solely by the brain.

You have no evidence of a soul yet still assert it exists.

Can you not see that you are the one at fault?
There is evidence of correlation of brain activity with conscious thought, but correlation does not imply causation.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton