Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3864142 times)

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17700 on: May 09, 2017, 12:56:23 PM »
I wonder if I might digress slightly and ask whether those who believe there is God and some mystical heaven in which to spend an eternity with said god (pause to shudder!), have ever  thought things through to the answer a bout life's end. I'm the oldest here now so my life's end cannot be that far away.

I do not consider for  a moment that death is anything other than final or that my life began with my conception.  I have never spent any of it searching for God. During the first half of my life I believed there was a force, but not that it affected my life in any way. 

Mods: If this is too far from the thread, please let me know and move it to a more appropriate section.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17701 on: May 09, 2017, 01:41:17 PM »
All very nice and poetic, and I'd go along with the notion that much of the Bible especially the King James version has much in the way of inspired powerful writing.  Beautifully written or expressed however does not equate to factually correct, and the notion of words coming first is not going to stand up to the merest scrutiny.  Back in the real world, observation suggests that the universe creates intelligence and not that intelligence creates the universe.  Putting intelligence as a first cause would be like planning to build a 50 storey skyscraper starting with the 50th floor and working back until you eventually get down to ground level. A non starter of an idea.
The building of a 50 storey skyscraper starts with an act of conscious free will!
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17702 on: May 09, 2017, 01:46:11 PM »
The building of a 50 storey skyscraper starts with an act of conscious free will!
And given you have as ever been unable to define free in a logically coherent way, your assertion is meaningless

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17703 on: May 09, 2017, 01:47:34 PM »
More science denial from Alan 'I'm not a science denier' Burns.  Yes, we know free will feels free, no one fails to understand that. But some of us have also understood, rather than denied, the findings from cognitive science and elsewhere that point to a more subtle understanding of the nature of will and the conscious self.
I do not deny the findings of cognitive science.  The fact that specific brain activity precedes an apparently conscious choice may suggest your interpretation but it does not prove it.   The fact that I perceive my conscious decisions being implemented suggests that your interpretation is wrong.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17704 on: May 09, 2017, 02:00:09 PM »
I wonder if I might digress slightly and ask whether those who believe there is God and some mystical heaven in which to spend an eternity with said god (pause to shudder!), have ever  thought things through to the answer a bout life's end. I'm the oldest here now so my life's end cannot be that far away.

I do not consider for  a moment that death is anything other than final or that my life began with my conception.  I have never spent any of it searching for God. During the first half of my life I believed there was a force, but not that it affected my life in any way. 

Susan,
If your conscious awareness is nothing more than the physical reactions of material particles, then your assumption that death is the end will be true.

But the best minds in science have not been able to define how conscious awareness can emanate from material particles.  As I have said in previous posts, conscious awareness requires a single entity which can perceive the content of your physical brain cells, but this single entity defies material definition.  So my conclusion is that this single entity of perception is you, and it is not material, therefore it will not die with the material body, but will continue to be an entity of perception in some other realm.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17705 on: May 09, 2017, 02:04:02 PM »
Susan,
If your conscious awareness is nothing more than the physical reactions of material particles, then your assumption that death is the end will be true.

But the best minds in science have not been able to define how conscious awareness can emanate from material particles.  As I have said in previous posts, conscious awareness requires a single entity which can perceive the content of your physical brain cells, but this single entity defies material definition.  So my conclusion is that this single entity of perception is you, and it is not material, therefore it will not die with the material body, but will continue to be an entity of perception in some other realm.

You are entitled to your conclusion, just as those who don't see it that way are entitled to theirs. :)

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17706 on: May 09, 2017, 02:31:08 PM »
I do not deny the findings of cognitive science.  The fact that specific brain activity precedes an apparently conscious choice may suggest your interpretation but it does not prove it.   The fact that I perceive my conscious decisions being implemented suggests that your interpretation is wrong.

How are you proving that, or is it just an assertion?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17707 on: May 09, 2017, 02:37:33 PM »
Hey, I like this quotation game.  Here's a nice one for you:


"all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing."  Heart Sutra, trans. Thich Nhat Hanh.


Fun innit?

Here are two more:

From the Rig Veda:

HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

"1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.
What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?
2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.
That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.
3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.
All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.
4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?
There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder
6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not."

From Basilides:

"There was when naught was; nay, even that 'naught' was not aught of things that are [even in the world of reality]. But nakedly, conjecture and mental quibbling apart, there was absolutely not even the One [the Logos of the world of reality]. And when I use the term 'was,' I do not mean to say that it was [that is to say, in any state of being]; but merely to give some suggestion of what I wish to indicate, I use the expression 'there was absolutely naught.' For that 'naught' is not simply the so-called Ineffable; it is beyond that. For that which is really ineffable is not named Ineffable, but is superior to every name that is used."



"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17708 on: May 09, 2017, 02:49:21 PM »
I do not deny the findings of cognitive science.  The fact that specific brain activity precedes an apparently conscious choice may suggest your interpretation but it does not prove it.   The fact that I perceive my conscious decisions being implemented suggests that your interpretation is wrong.
You know well enough already that science does not deal in proofs. Evidence suggests, and consciousness lag is not my interpretation of the science, that is what the evidence is telling us. We can either absorb these finding and try to understand, or we can engage in denial, look the other way and hope it will go away.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17709 on: May 09, 2017, 02:57:35 PM »
Floo,

Quote
You are entitled to your conclusion, just as those who don't see it that way are entitled to theirs. :)

Anyone is entitled to his own conclusions about anything, however ill-informed. What he's not entitled to though are his own facts - which where he goes wrong.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17710 on: May 09, 2017, 02:59:40 PM »
Susan,
If your conscious awareness is nothing more than the physical reactions of material particles, then your assumption that death is the end will be true.

But the best minds in science have not been able to define how conscious awareness can emanate from material particles.  As I have said in previous posts, conscious awareness requires a single entity which can perceive the content of your physical brain cells, but this single entity defies material definition.  So my conclusion is that this single entity of perception is you, and it is not material, therefore it will not die with the material body, but will continue to be an entity of perception in some other realm.

In other words, science is hard, therefore lets indulge a little fantasy

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17711 on: May 09, 2017, 03:07:31 PM »
Susan,
If your conscious awareness is nothing more than the physical reactions of material particles, then your assumption that death is the end will be true.

But the best minds in science have not been able to define how conscious awareness can emanate from material particles.  As I have said in previous posts, conscious awareness requires a single entity which can perceive the content of your physical brain cells, but this single entity defies material definition.  So my conclusion is that this single entity of perception is you, and it is not material, therefore it will not die with the material body, but will continue to be an entity of perception in some other realm.
Name some of these'best minds in Science'.
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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17712 on: May 09, 2017, 03:11:21 PM »
Floo,

Anyone is entitled to his own conclusions about anything, however ill-informed. What he's not entitled to though are his own facts - which where he goes wrong.

That goes for anyone who claims something as a fact, which can't be substantiated, like much of what is in the Bible.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17713 on: May 09, 2017, 03:19:30 PM »
You know well enough already that science does not deal in proofs. Evidence suggests, and consciousness lag is not my interpretation of the science, that is what the evidence is telling us. We can either absorb these finding and try to understand, or we can engage in denial, look the other way and hope it will go away.
But if all my conscious decisions are pre determined before I am conscious of them, what is it precisely that you are accusing of denial and looking the other way?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17714 on: May 09, 2017, 03:25:44 PM »
But if all my conscious decisions are pre determined before I am conscious of them, what is it precisely that you are accusing of denial and looking the other way?

You are asserting a soul into existence with no evidence.

You 'feel' free to make decisions, but that is just how it feels in our brain when we are conscious and thinking.

Just because something 'feels' that way, that does not make it so.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17715 on: May 09, 2017, 03:56:03 PM »
But if all my conscious decisions are pre determined before I am conscious of them, what is it precisely that you are accusing of denial and looking the other way?

I don't think we can say that decisions are pre-determined as we cannot rule out randomness but to speak to your point I would answer in terms of your conscious self, which broadly corresponds to what you call soul, although in my book the conscious self is an emergent construct of mind rather than something distinct from the body.  I just posted up something more detailed on this on another thread, reply 62 here  :

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=13861.msg673142;topicseen#msg673142
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 03:58:34 PM by torridon »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17716 on: May 09, 2017, 05:35:52 PM »
Susan,
If your conscious awareness is nothing more than the physical reactions of material particles, then your assumption that death is the end will be true.

But the best minds in science have not been able to define how conscious awareness can emanate from material particles.  As I have said in previous posts, conscious awareness requires a single entity which can perceive the content of your physical brain cells, but this single entity defies material definition.  So my conclusion is that this single entity of perception is you, and it is not material, therefore it will not die with the material body, but will continue to be an entity of perception in some other realm.

Do you think the soul is growing along with the body, or do you think that the body grows up to eventually utilise some of the capacities of the soul? If the latter, what would be the average age when we achieved maximum 'soul awareness'? I write this, because I'm sure as hell that the consciousness I had when I was three was totally different from that which I have now.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17717 on: May 09, 2017, 07:35:39 PM »
Do you think the soul is growing along with the body, or do you think that the body grows up to eventually utilise some of the capacities of the soul? If the latter, what would be the average age when we achieved maximum 'soul awareness'? I write this, because I'm sure as hell that the consciousness I had when I was three was totally different from that which I have now.
The soul will be aware of the growth in knowledge, capacity and experience within the brain cells, so in a sense it will grow with the body regarding these earthly experiences.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17718 on: May 09, 2017, 07:42:05 PM »
The soul will be aware of the growth in knowledge, capacity and experience within the brain cells, so in a sense it will grow with the body regarding these earthly experiences.
Capacity?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17719 on: May 09, 2017, 07:52:31 PM »
The soul will be aware of the growth in knowledge, capacity and experience within the brain cells, so in a sense it will grow with the body regarding these earthly experiences.

Surely then a 'soul' could be damaged or fail to grow if the person had nothing but negative experiences - would you agree?

Robbie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17720 on: May 09, 2017, 08:11:08 PM »
As in 'soul destroying'?
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17721 on: May 09, 2017, 08:57:57 PM »
As in 'soul destroying'?

Not in this case, since I'd imagine most people use 'soul destroying' as a synonym for, say, low morale, disappointment or pessimism. Alan views the soul as something literal that he suggests interacts in some way with our life experiences: he's yet to explain how this soul operates.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17722 on: May 10, 2017, 06:22:38 AM »
The soul will be aware of the growth in knowledge, capacity and experience within the brain cells, so in a sense it will grow with the body regarding these earthly experiences.

So what of a soul of a foetus that dies before term ? Does this mean there lots of underdeveloped or stalled souls in heaven.  For the first couple of months there is no brain cells for the soul to examine, so what is it looking at then ?

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17723 on: May 10, 2017, 08:11:09 AM »
Surely then a 'soul' could be damaged or fail to grow if the person had nothing but negative experiences - would you agree?
I'm not sure that 'growth' is the best word.  Maybe 'contamination' is better in the sense of striving for clarity of vision and purity of heart which are perhaps tested by negative experiences.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #17724 on: May 10, 2017, 03:20:05 PM »
So what of a soul of a foetus that dies before term ? Does this mean there lots of underdeveloped or stalled souls in heaven.  For the first couple of months there is no brain cells for the soul to examine, so what is it looking at then ?

Also what about young children?   I would think that they are developing a sense of self, e.g. being separate from others, being an object in the world, and so on.   Strange how AB's soul seems quite parasitic on psychological development. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!