Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

ok ...
So why search for knowledge then? With knowledge comes the ability to search for more knowledge, but if there is a radical distrust in certainity of the existing knowledge on which the search is based ...

Bertrand Russell, in his Liberal Decalogue, notes as his first point 'Do not feel absolutely certain of anything', which is very good advice you'd do we'll to heed.

You use terms like 'certain', 'proof' and 'truth' with abandon and yet these terms are far more nuanced than you seem to be based on your use of them.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is there anything other than these?

If you are asking me I would say yes from experience. If I was asking you you would put your money on no for philosophical reasons.

The term methodological naturalism is a crock particularly when you put a roof rack on the top of it to load more philosophy onto it like Hillside does.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Fallacy Boy,

If you are asking me I would say yes from experience. If I was asking you you would put your money on no for philosophical reasons.

The term methodological naturalism is a crock particularly when you put a roof rack on the top of it to load more philosophy onto it like Hillside does.

STOP FUCKING LYING

[Shaker]

If you are asking me I would say yes from experience.

Not good enough. You could be utterly, utterly barking batshit trumpet lobster hatstand Tamworth Lorraine Kelly battenburg insane ... which leaves your 'experience' up Dawkins's Creek without a copy of The Extended Phenotype.

Better luck on your next try, though.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not good enough. You could be utterly, utterly barking batshit trumpet lobster hatstand Tamworth Lorraine Kelly battenburg insane ... which leaves your 'experience' up Dawkins's Creek without a copy of The Extended Phenotype.

We'll I'm not...I'm as sane as you are (snork)

Sadly I have no experience of being 'Up Dawkin's Creek'......nor have I quite decided, The God Delusion not withstanding, whether The Extended Phenotype has proceeded from it.

[Shaker]

We'll I'm not

Any evidence for that?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Any evidence for that?

Any evidence of yours?

[Shaker]

Any evidence of yours?

My what?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

My what?

Sanity....That's what you want evidence of from me isn't it?

[Shaker]

Sanity....That's what you want evidence of from me isn't it?

Yes. I'm still waiting.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

Yes. I'm still waiting.

You’re waiting for evidence from the king of misleading, dissembling, dissimulating, equivocating, fibbing, misrepresenting, misstating, prevaricating, deceitful, mendacious, shifty lying?

Actual evidence?

Really?

Good luck with that.

[ippy]

But it is still going on, Ippy.
For example the magnificent Sagrada Familia Basilica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagrada_Fam%C3%ADlia

Construction began in 1882, and it is now 70% complete.  Expected completion date is 2026.  Construction is totally funded by public donations.

You say Alan: 'But it is still going on, Ippy'.

For example the magnificent Sagrada Familia Basilica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagrada_Fam%C3%ADlia

Construction began in 1882, and it is now 70% complete.  Expected completion date is 2026.  Construction is totally funded by public donations.


Yes these primitive beliefs are bound to have their hangers on Alan, nothing surprising there, I dare say you could still find some Zeus followers if you were to look hard enough, that' how it is, these beliefs usually peter out in the end, it's just happening that little bit quicker here in Europe.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Shakes,

You’re waiting for evidence from the king of misleading, dissembling, dissimulating, equivocating, fibbing, misrepresenting, misstating, prevaricating, deceitful, mendacious, shifty lying?

....lipsmacking everlivin' PEPSI.

[Alan Burns]

You say Alan: 'But it is still going on, Ippy'.

For example the magnificent Sagrada Familia Basilica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagrada_Fam%C3%ADlia

Construction began in 1882, and it is now 70% complete.  Expected completion date is 2026.  Construction is totally funded by public donations.


Yes these primitive beliefs are bound to have their hangers on Alan, nothing surprising there, I dare say you could still find some Zeus followers if you were to look hard enough, that' how it is, these beliefs usually peter out in the end, it's just happening that little bit quicker here in Europe.

ippy

The Sagrada Familia Basilica is in Europe.

And Christianity will never die out, because Jesus promises:  "Yes, I am with you always, even to the end of time" Matthew 28:20

[Shaker]

Christianity will never die out, because Jesus promises [...]

Well there's a copper-bottomed guarantee if you like 

[ippy]

The Sagrada Familia Basilica is in Europe.

And Christianity will never die out, because Jesus promises:  "Yes, I am with you always, even to the end of time" Matthew 28:20

I didn't say it would, there'll always be the odd one or two, still punting for Zeus, if you look hard enough; likewise your kind of fantasy and I dare say christianity will have one or two flurishes left in it but overall the trend will end up in the same way as those old gods.

Superstion won't be completly running out of steem in my, or probably in your  time so don't let it worry you too much Alan, you'll still be able to spend time with groups of people spending those long weekends all talking to yourselves.

ippy

[Shaker]

I didn't say it would, there'll always be the odd one or two, still punting for Zeus, if you look hard enough

Indeed: http://tinyurl.com/lbjlgfp

[torridon]

Because in some cases, that certainty can be built on; it allows for further development.

For example: Try doing Maths without some kind of certainty.

The analogies you give both show the value of certainty. If one could never be certain that some medicines work, could the standard of medical care we have today have ever been reached? If one could never be certain that motor cars work, would we still be relying on our own two feet, horse and cart and bicycles to get around?

Maths isn't science.  Maths and formal logic are self contained and so proofs are possible. Not so in science, where all knowledge is considered provisional until better evidence comes along.  This ethos has been fundamental to the success of science, by rejecting dogma, authority and certainty it remains lighter on its feet and better able to improve on previous thinking.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

From page 230 of 'Reality Is Not What It Seems(The Journey To Quantum Gravity)' by Carlo Rovelli

Just had a nice example of the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon - where one chances a new piece of information and soon afterwards encounters the same subject again:

https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomenon/

I hadn’t heard of Carlo Rovelli before you started posting quotes a few days ago, but I was just listening to the re-run of Desert Island Discs and guess who they announced as next week’s guest? Yup, one Carlo Rovelli!

How spooky is that eh?

Erm...

...sadly, not very – the B-M phenomenon is better described as the frequency illusion because it is an illusion. It works because we also ignore the countless other bits of information we receive all the time, and then fool ourselves into thinking that there must be some purpose in the co-incidence.

No doubt Alan Burns would tell us that it's proof positive of a miracle or some such, but there you go.

[Nearly Sane]

My particular version of the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon involves the word 'copacetic'. The first time I heard of it, within a week I'd heard it twice more. It then seems to reoccur every few years and every single time, at least in the perception of my pattern seeking brain, you can guarantee that you can wait years for a copacetic then 2 of 3 of them will be calling all at once.

[Rhiannon]

I keep hearing Clannad everywhere I go. Is it a sign?

[ippy]

Indeed: http://tinyurl.com/lbjlgfp

Thanks Shakes, the only thing with that lot is, I can't see why anyone would want to worship Herpes?

ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rhi,

I keep hearing Clannad everywhere I go. Is it a sign?

Could be. Currently I keep hearing the Bee Gees wherever I go – even happened when I opened the fridge this morning…

…mind you, that turned out to be just the chives talking.

(I’ll get me coat  )

[Rhiannon]

Rhi,

Could be. Currently I keep hearing the Bee Gees wherever I go – even happened when I opened the fridge this morning…

…mind you, that turned out to be just the chives talking.

(I’ll get me coat  )

That'd be a Tragedy.

[Alan Burns]

Erm...

...sadly, not very – the B-M phenomenon is better described as the frequency illusion because it is an illusion. It works because we also ignore the countless other bits of information we receive all the time, and then fool ourselves into thinking that there must be some purpose in the co-incidence.

No doubt Alan Burns would tell us that it's proof positive of a miracle or some such, but there you go.

My own experience of this:
One morning I read this article extract which had been published in an old magazine:

Turks expanded their empire westward on land, and asserted their naval power in the Mediterranean. In 1565 they attacked Malta, envisioning an eventual invasion of Rome. Though repelled at Malta, the Turks captured Cyprus in the fall of 1570.

The next year, three Catholic powers on the continent – Genoa, Spain, and the Papal States - formed an alliance called the Holy League, to defend their Christian civilization against Turkish invasion. Its fleets sailed to confront the Turks near the west coast of Greece on October 7, 1571.

Crew members on more than 200 ships prayed the Rosary in preparation for the battle - as did Christians throughout Europe, encouraged by the Pope to gather in their churches to invoke the Virgin Mary against the daunting Turkish forces.

Some accounts say that Pope Pius V was granted a miraculous vision of the Holy League's stunning victory. Without a doubt, the Pope understood the significance of the day's events, when he was eventually informed that all but 13 of the nearly 300 Turkish ships had been captured or sunk. He was moved to institute the feast now celebrated universally as Our Lady of the Rosary.

“Turkish victory at Lepanto would have been a catastrophe of the first magnitude for Christendom,” wrote military historian John F. Guilmartin, Jr., “and Europe would have followed a historical trajectory strikingly different from that which obtained.”

I had never heard of the battle of Lepanto before, and that same day I attended Mass where the priest gave a sermon about the battle of Lepanto and the power of the Holy Rosary.  And yes, I do believe that this was a divine reminder to me that I should pray more often, because we all underestimate the power of prayer.