Searching for GOD...

[floo]

Words fail me!

[BeRational]

Words fail me!

I think bonkers fits

[Shaker]

Words fail me!

Something that should be more widely shared with some people, I've often thought.

[ekim]

ekim,

I hadn’t heard of Carlo Rovelli before you started posting quotes a few days ago, but I was just listening to the re-run of Desert Island Discs and guess who they announced as next week’s guest? Yup, one Carlo Rovelli!

I think that was SwordoftheSpirit in post 18884.  Phew, you had me worried there.  I thought an alternative personality had taken me over.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I had never heard of the battle of Lepanto before, and that same day I attended Mass where the priest gave a sermon about the battle of Lepanto and the power of the Holy Rosary.  And yes, I do believe that this was a divine reminder to me that I should pray more often, because we all underestimate the power of prayer.

And there's your mistake just there. The frequency illusion is well-understood, yet you choose instead to opt for a woo alternative. You also by the way would have to demonstrate that prayer has any power at all before worrying about assertions that that supposed power is underestimated.

[Nearly Sane]

I think that was SwordoftheSpirit in post 18884.  Phew, you had me worried there.  I thought an alternative personality had taken me over.

SotS was quoting enki's post which is both more understandable for the original quote, and bluehillside's identity mix up.

[ekim]

I had never heard of the battle of Lepanto before, and that same day I attended Mass where the priest gave a sermon about the battle of Lepanto and the power of the Holy Rosary.  And yes, I do believe that this was a divine reminder to me that I should pray more often, because we all underestimate the power of prayer.

..... and every year the Pope prays for peace in the Middle East and every year it seems to get worse.

[BeRational]

..... and every year the Pope prays for peace in the Middle East and every year it seems to get worse.

He only remembers the hits.

The misses do not count as that is just god being mysterious.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

SotS was quoting enki's post which is both more understandable for the original quote, and bluehillside's identity mix up.

Yup - not the first time I've mixed up my enki with my ekim: my apologies to both.

As for old Rubber Spatula of Flatulence, his modus operandi seems to be to carpet bomb with logical errors and then to disappear again. Very odd. 

[floo]

Considering how much evil the Catholic church has been responsible for over centuries, maybe if the Turks had wiped it out they would have done the world a favour, just a thought.   

[Shaker]

..... and every year the Pope prays for peace in the Middle East and every year it seems to get worse.

To me, the last word on the power of prayer:

A journalist assigned to the Jerusalem bureau takes an apartment overlooking the Wailing Wall. Every day when she looks out, she sees a little old Jewish man praying vigorously nearly all day every day. So the journalist finally goes down and introduces herself to the old man.

She asks, "Sir, if you don't mind my asking: you come every day to the wall. How long have you done that and what are you praying for?"

The old man replies, "I have come here to pray every day for eighty years, ever since my bar mitzvah. I'm 93 now. In the morning I pray for world peace and for the brotherhood of all people of all races, creeds and colours. At about midday I go home, have a cup of tea and a nap, then I come back in the afternoon and pray for the eradication of sickness and disease from the earth."

The journalist is amazed. "And you've done that every day?"

"Every day, without fail. Even when I was sick, even when my poor wife was sick, even the day she passed away. Never missed a single day, thank the good Lord."

"That's incredible. So tell me: how does it make you feel to come here every single day for eighty years and pray for these things?" she asks.

The old man looks at her sadly. "Young lady, like I'm talking to a fucking wall." 

[Nearly Sane]

Considering how much evil the Catholic church has been responsible for over centuries, maybe if the Turks had wiped it out they would have done the world a favour, just a thought.

It isn't a thing. it is made up of people which you seem to be wanting to have been murdered.

[Shaker]

As for old Rubber Spatula of Flatulence, his modus operandi seems to be to carpet bomb with logical errors and then to disappear again. Very odd.

Interesting new name for the Potato Masher of Doom.

[Alan Burns]

He only remembers the hits.

The misses do not count as that is just god being mysterious.

Selection bias works both ways.
If you want to demonstrate that prayer does not work, you ignore the miracles and quote what you believe to be examples of unanswered prayer.

[floo]

It isn't a thing. it is made up of people which you seem to be wanting to have been murdered.

I was responding in kind to AB's post where he gave the impression the slaughter carried out by papists had god's support and was some sort of crazy miracle.

Surely if god was a good deity instead of the psycho it appears to be it would end suffering instead of encouraging it.

[Rhiannon]

Selection bias works both ways.
If you want to demonstrate that prayer does not work, you ignore the miracles and quote what you believe to be examples of unanswered prayer.

No, it doesn't work like that. Miracles are so called because they are supernatural. We know how the natural order of things work. You assert that miracles happen? The burden of proof lies with you.

[Shaker]

Selection bias works both ways.
If you want to demonstrate that prayer does not work

Surely the idea is to demonstrate that it does - that it doesn't is the default, the null hypothesis. To demonstrate that it does requires evidence, not assumption and assertion.

you ignore the miracles

Begging the question fallacy. Next.

[floo]

God gets praised if there is a positive outcome after someone has offered a prayer, but it doesn't get blamed if the outcome is not as hoped!

[Nearly Sane]

I was responding in kind to AB's post where he gave the impression the slaughter carried out by papists had god's support and was some sort of crazy miracle.

Surely if god was a good deity instead of the psycho it appears to be it would end suffering instead of encouraging it.

Ah whataboutery raises its head again. Why does what Alan Burns say justify you supporting mass murder?

[torridon]

Selection bias works both ways.
If you want to demonstrate that prayer does not work, you ignore the miracles and quote what you believe to be examples of unanswered prayer.

Every night I pray for a Lamborghini.  Not once has one turned up in my drive.  Not even once dammit 

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Selection bias works both ways.

No it doesn't. It really doesn't.

If you want to demonstrate that prayer does not work, you ignore the miracles...

No - we don't "ignore" them at all. Rather some of us don't just accept that there were miracles without cogent evidence for the claim.

..and quote what you believe to be examples of unanswered prayer.

First, that's easy: if I pray to win the lottery next week and I don't win it, then I have an unanswered prayer.

Second though, you fundamentally misunderstand how testing works. What you actually do is to establish sample groups of sizes that are statistically meaningful (as opposed to the single event anecdotes on which you rely) and then you run trials, for example by praying for a thousand cancer patients and not praying for another thousand cancer patients, and then comparing outcomes.

And when you do that, you find that praying makes no difference whatever (indeed in one study the group who were told they were prayed for actually did a bit worse, presumably because they thought the fact of the praying meant that things were more serious than they thought).

   

[Shaker]

Every night I pray for a Lamborghini.  Not once has one turned up in my drive.  Not even once dammit 

And Aria Giovanni is yet to show her ... face in my neck of the woods, too 

[floo]

Every night I pray for a Lamborghini.  Not once has one turned up in my drive.  Not even once dammit 

How unkind of god!

[Alan Burns]

No, it doesn't work like that. Miracles are so called because they are supernatural. We know how the natural order of things work. You assert that miracles happen? The burden of proof lies with you.

There are many people who have given testimony to miraculous answers to prayer, myself included.  To deny these miracles, you would have to accuse the personal witnesses of lying, or of being genuinely deluded.  In my experience, people who do not want to believe will always find a reason not to.  This harks back to Sassy's opening post - "it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him."

[Shaker]

indeed in one study the group who were told they were prayed for actually did a bit worse, presumably because they thought the fact of the praying meant that things were more serious than they thought

Viz. the STEP project: http://tinyurl.com/y7rwvjet