Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3862718 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18950 on: June 30, 2017, 12:27:08 PM »
There are many people who have given testimony to miraculous answers to prayer, myself included.  To deny these miracles, you would have to accuse the personal witnesses of lying, or of being genuinely deluded.

Testimony is simply assertion.

And there's a bit more to it than lying or deluded (excluded middle fallacy - you're welcome): 'catastrophically ill-equipped in rational thought and prone to every logical fallacy under the sun' is probably a better (because more accurate) term than deluded.

Fallacies such as the two you've committed on this thread in a matter of minutes, for example.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 12:29:09 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18951 on: June 30, 2017, 12:28:44 PM »
NS,

Yup - not the first time I've mixed up my enki with my ekim: my apologies to both.

As for old Rubber Spatula of Flatulence, his modus operandi seems to be to carpet bomb with logical errors and then to disappear again. Very odd.

No problem at all, Blue. Apologies accepted.

I found Rovelli's book extremely readable. In the third part of his book he puts forward some very interesting conjectures on the nature of space and time, emphasising loop quantum gravity, whilst acknowledging that others may prefer the string theory approach. There's a fascinating chapter on the idea of 'Empirical Confirmations' which, for me, goes to the heart of what modern science is all about.

Incidentally, I noted your reference to the coincidence aspect. It has always fascinated me that there are people who think that coincidences are particularly meaningful. My take on this is that it is part of human nature to recognise patterns, to seek patterns and to be tempted to give significance to patterns. Sometimes this can be a useful survival trait, but without the necessary checks and balances, they are simply coincidences, which by their very nature are empty of meaning(apart from the subjective, that is). Most card games emphasise easily discernible patterns of cards(e.g. 3 kings, a run of sequential cards etc.), even though logic dictates that the same probability exists for any selection of cards(given the equality of their distribution). The only meaning to these card patterns therefore is the one which we give to them. My take on Alan's 'Lepanto' coincidence is that he is extremely naive in not recognising that it is simply a random event without any significance at all(apart from that which he creates for himself). 
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18952 on: June 30, 2017, 12:29:52 PM »
There are many people who have given testimony to miraculous answers to prayer, myself included.  To deny these miracles, you would have to accuse the personal witnesses of lying, or of being genuinely deluded.  In my experience, people who do not want to believe will always find a reason not to.  This harks back to Sassy's opening post - "it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him."


It looks like you haven't been reading the responses on this thread then.  There are nearly 19000 currently, I suggest you start reading.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18953 on: June 30, 2017, 12:31:13 PM »

It looks like you haven't been reading the responses on this thread then.
I would submit that that has been obvious for a very long time indeed.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18954 on: June 30, 2017, 12:31:18 PM »

Second though, you fundamentally misunderstand how testing works. What you actually do is to establish sample groups of sizes that are statistically meaningful (as opposed to the single event anecdotes on which you rely) and then you run trials, for example by praying for a thousand cancer patients and not praying for another thousand cancer patients, and then comparing outcomes.

And when you do that, you find that praying makes no difference whatever (indeed in one study the group who were told they were prayed for actually did a bit worse, presumably because they thought the fact of the praying meant that things were more serious than they thought).

Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Luke 4:12
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18955 on: June 30, 2017, 12:31:32 PM »
There are many people who have given testimony to miraculous answers to prayer, myself included.  To deny these miracles, you would have to accuse the personal witnesses of lying, or of being genuinely deluded.  In my experience, people who do not want to believe will always find a reason not to.  This harks back to Sassy's opening post - "it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him."

There is no verifiable 'truth' about the Bible god, but plenty of good reasons for not being taken in by the less than credible deeds attributed to it.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18956 on: June 30, 2017, 12:32:46 PM »
Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Luke 4:12

So what?

How are we supposed to find out the truth about the universe but by putting it to the test?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18957 on: June 30, 2017, 12:36:04 PM »

It looks like you haven't been reading the responses on this thread then.  There are nearly 19000 currently, I suggest you start reading.
It would appear that my interpretation of the responses is different to yours.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18958 on: June 30, 2017, 12:39:10 PM »
It would appear that my interpretation of the responses is different to yours.

Perhaps you need to listen to what people say rather than just putting your own interpretation on it then.  That way you'll start to engage and understand with what other people actually think rather than Sassy's strawman version.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18959 on: June 30, 2017, 12:39:30 PM »
It would appear that my interpretation of the responses is different to yours.
Opinion again, eh, Al?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18960 on: June 30, 2017, 12:40:54 PM »
Perhaps you need to listen to what people say rather than just putting your own interpretation on it then.  That way you'll start to engage and understand with what other people actually think rather than Sassy's strawman version.
I suppose it's too much to hope that he'll start to engage with and understand people who think, full stop.

Not a prayer of that.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18961 on: June 30, 2017, 12:43:18 PM »
So what?

How are we supposed to find out the truth about the universe but by putting it to the test?
You will not find the truth in the minutia of human scientific investigation.  I would suggest you try reading the New Testament with an open mind and allow God's spirit to enlighten you via the miraculous perception ability of the human soul.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18962 on: June 30, 2017, 12:44:36 PM »
AB,

Quote
There are many people who have given testimony to miraculous answers to prayer, myself included.  To deny these miracles, you would have to accuse the personal witnesses of lying, or of being genuinely deluded.  In my experience, people who do not want to believe will always find a reason not to.  This harks back to Sassy's opening post - "it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him."

This piece of false reasoning is called the non sequitur. You wouldn’t “have to accuse the personal witnesses of lying, or of being genuinely deluded” at all (though either or both are possible).

Rather all you’d have to do is to explain why they don’t understand how reason and logic works. “Testimony” is anecdotal – it takes a sample size of one (ie, the person doing the testifying) and draws inferences from it – eg, “I couldn’t find my car keys; I prayed to God/Ra/Colin the Leprechaun; then I found my car keys; therefore God/Ra/Colin the Leprechaun answered my prayer”.

Anecdotes (yours included) are though evidentially useless if you want to demonstrate generalised assertions such as “prayer works”.

See if you can work out why. 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 12:47:25 PM by bluehillside »
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God

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18963 on: June 30, 2017, 12:45:26 PM »
Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Luke 4:12


That makes you a slave, not free.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18964 on: June 30, 2017, 12:46:13 PM »
You will not find the truth in the minutia of human scientific investigation.
It has been rather remarkably successful so far. How's your alternative project faring?

Quote
I would suggest you try reading the New Testament with an open mind and allow God's spirit to enlighten you via the miraculous perception ability of the human soul.
Why do you assume that I haven't read the aforementioned document?

And why do I have the overwhelming suspicion that "open mind" actually means "believing as I do"?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18965 on: June 30, 2017, 12:46:51 PM »
That makes you a slave, not free.
And a slave in love with his chains and manacles.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18966 on: June 30, 2017, 12:46:55 PM »
Perhaps you need to listen to what people say rather than just putting your own interpretation on it then.  That way you'll start to engage and understand with what other people actually think rather than Sassy's strawman version.
I fully understand the responses made on this thread, but to me they are shallow attempts to verify that there is no need for God's existence.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18967 on: June 30, 2017, 12:50:56 PM »
There are many people who have given testimony to miraculous answers to prayer, myself included.  To deny these miracles, you would have to accuse the personal witnesses of lying, or of being genuinely deluded.  In my experience, people who do not want to believe will always find a reason not to.  This harks back to Sassy's opening post - "it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him."

Surely you've moved beyond using testimony to argue that something is fact?

How about those who testify to the existence of pagan gods and the efficacy of witchcraft and spellcssting?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18968 on: June 30, 2017, 12:51:48 PM »
AB,

Quote
I fully understand the responses made on this thread, but to me they are shallow attempts to verify that there is no need for God's existence.

No, what they actually are are logically robust explanations for why your arguments for there being "God" in the first place are wrong.

Whether or not there's a "need" for this "God" by the way is a separate matter, and using a supposed need to validate the claim "God" would be yet another of the fallacies on which you rely - ie, the argumentum ad consequentiam.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18969 on: June 30, 2017, 12:52:07 PM »
I fully understand the responses made on this thread
Why, then, does every word you write scream otherwise?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18970 on: June 30, 2017, 12:54:41 PM »
AB,

This piece of false reasoning is called the non sequitur. You wouldn’t “have to accuse the personal witnesses of lying, or of being genuinely deluded” at all (though either or both are possible).

Rather all you’d have to do is to explain why they don’t understand how reason and logic works. “Testimony” is anecdotal – it takes a sample size of one (ie, the person doing the testifying) and draws inferences from it – eg, “I couldn’t find my car keys; I prayed to God/Ra/Colin the Leprechaun; then I found my car keys; therefore God/Ra/Colin the Leprechaun answered my prayer”.

Anecdotes (yours included) are though evidentially useless if you want to demonstrate generalised assertions such as “prayer works”.

See if you can work out why.
I am not talking about coincidences, but miracles, such as Elle Mumford's witness to the curing of a cleft palate or my own witness to the miraculous recovery of my wife's father from an aortic aneurysm.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18971 on: June 30, 2017, 01:00:26 PM »
I am not talking about coincidences, but miracles, such as Elle Mumford's witness to the curing of a cleft palate
Didn't you claim that this alleged event occurred in a hospital?

Which one?

Since you've been hawking this tale around the forum for some time, let me refresh your memory: http://tinyurl.com/yct27l4k

Quote
or my own witness to the miraculous recovery of my wife's father from an aortic aneurysm.
'Anecdote' is not a synonym of 'evidence'.

However much you think it is.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:04:36 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18972 on: June 30, 2017, 01:02:36 PM »
AB,

No, what they actually are are logically robust explanations for why your arguments for there being "God" in the first place are wrong.

Whether or not there's a "need" for this "God" by the way is a separate matter, and using a supposed need to validate the claim "God" would be yet another of the fallacies on which you rely - ie, the argumentum ad consequentiam.
You fail to understand that your own existence is entirely dependent on the existence of God.  We need God in order to exist, otherwise there would be nothing.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18973 on: June 30, 2017, 01:04:58 PM »
You fail to understand that your own existence is entirely dependent on the existence of God.  We need God in order to exist, otherwise there would be nothing.
Assertion, assertion, assertion.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #18974 on: June 30, 2017, 01:05:08 PM »
Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Luke 4:12


An utterly meaningless statement as far as I am concerned.

1) Only if I believed in your God, could I conceivably test Him on anything.

2) I have no belief in any god, let alone yours.

3) How therefore can I put your God to any test?
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright