Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Didn't you claim that this alleged event occurred in a hospital?

My recollection is that the miracle took place on a bus journey, and was later verified in a hospital.

[Shaker]

My recollection is that the miracle took place on a bus journey, and was later verified in a hospital.

Which one?

[Shaker]

Perhaps I can be forgiven for quoting myself, in a post I wrote on May 26th 2015:

Re: Searching for GOD...

Reply #122 on: May 26, 2015, 09:02:39 PM »

Not going to be forthcoming, is it Alan? I mean specific details of an event which, if it had ever actually happened, would have made not just national but international news and would have been the subject of intense scrutiny from the medical profession all over the entire planet. Name of the woman, name of the child, name and location of the hospital in which this so-called examination allegedly occurred ... absolutely none of these will be forthcoming, will they Alan?

[torridon]

I fully understand the responses made on this thread, but to me they are shallow attempts to verify that there is no need for God's existence.

So, the problem is in your own mind Alan.  What you are hearing is not what people are saying.  You are just listening to your own spin and its drowning out what is actually being said.

[torridon]

You fail to understand that your own existence is entirely dependent on the existence of God.  We need God in order to exist, otherwise there would be nothing.

That is of course, just your opinion.  To me it doesn't really make sense.

[Shaker]

Alan:

Immensely worthy charities such as Operation Smile and Smile Train raise funds to treat babies and children with cleft palate all over the world. Despite the ridiculousness of your tale I'm glad it has surfaced again as mention of the aforementioned charities here may rake in a few more donations.

Be that as it may: don't you think that instead of cowering behind a second-hand account of an unverified event that supposedly happened to people you won't name in a place you can't remember, an actual miracle would be something like the spontaneous healing of all children with cleft palate, not just the alleged one in your little story? A lot of extremely dedicated people work very hard to help kids with cleft palate, and they have to do it the hard way, i.e. surgery. Wouldn't one of your parlour conjuring tricks save them the bother?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

am not talking about coincidences…

Your probably are, but you don’t realise it.

…but miracle, such as Elle Mumford's witness to the curing of a cleft palate or my own witness to the miraculous recovery of my wife's father from an aortic aneurysm.

What these anecdotes describe are events that were surprising, but nothing more. To be “miracles” you’d have to demonstrate that they couldn't have happened naturally, rather than that natural answers weren’t to hand.

I explained to you a few posts ago by the way how you’d test for the efficacy or otherwise of prayer without relying on the fundamental failings for that purpose of anecdote, but I see you’ve ignored the explanation.

Oh well.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You fail to understand that your own existence is entirely dependent on the existence of God.  We need God in order to exist, otherwise there would be nothing.

You fail to understand that assertions of personal belief like this with neither logic nor evidence to support them are epistemically worthless.

About the only good thing to say about it is that, by abandoning entirely even the pretence of argument, you avoided the tank traps of logical fallacy into which you usually fall.

[Nearly Sane]

Which one?

No 12 to Peckham Rye

[Shaker]

Though posted by Professor Davey just now on a different thread altogether, it's so apposite to this one that I hope the good Prof. won't take exception to my quoting it here:

... of course the onus is on the person making the claim to provide the evidence to substantiate that claim - in this case AO - he has made a whole bunch of claims in his post and therefore he needs to back up those claims with sufficient evidence. If he doesn't (and he hasn't) then to suggest his opinion are completely unsubstantiated is perfectly correct.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My recollection is that the miracle took place on a bus journey, and was later verified in a hospital.

I don't know whether you meant to say that but, if you did, then you're lying. No hospital has verified a "miracle" - at best it would verify a medically surprising outcome. The "miracle" bit is just an explanatory narrative you happen to find persuasive.

[Enki]

My recollection is that the miracle took place on a bus journey, and was later verified in a hospital.

Not according to your own description, Alan,(Post 1919) where you commented on the miraculous healing taking place 'just minutes' after you had read from the end of Psalm 91, in the hospital where he was at the time.

Perhaps your memory just  isn't that reliable at all

[Shaker]

AB,

I don't know whether you meant to say that but, if you did, then you're lying. No hospital has verified a "miracle" - at best it would verify a medically surprising outcome. The "miracle" bit is just an exlanatory narrative you find to be persuasive.

We're not going find out the name of any hospital - that could lead to the alleged event being looked into. That would be too specific - the name of an actual hospital means the alleged event can be investigated. Calls can be made, people tracked down and questioned and so on

No, what we'll get is a parade of the usual excuses. Can't remember, not sure, or - I'll have a score on this one - can remember but not at liberty to say, etc etc.

Given the nature of the alleged event, the reticence to name names, names places, specify dates and what have you is rather surprising.

Or on the other hand maybe not.

[Rhiannon]

I've linked to this before somewhere. Oh yes, it was on this very thread about a year ago. But hey, Alan, you can have it again.

http://apprising.org/2013/02/04/nicky-gumbel-invites-vineyard-uk-founder-eleanor-mumford-steven-furtick-bill-hybels-to-leadership-conference/

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

We're not going find out the name of any hospital - that could lead to verification or its opposite. That would be too specific - the name of an actual hospital means the alleged event can be investigated. Calls can be made, people tracked down and questioned and so on

No, what we'll get is a parade of the usual excuses. Can't remember, not sure, or - I'll have a score on this one - can remember but not at liberty to say, etc etc

Yes, but that's not the central point really. Even if a hospital said, "Mrs X arrived on such and such date with a serious medical complaint that we were surprised to see had healed" that would tell you precisely nothing about whether a miracle had occurred.

When you think about it, the very concept "miracle" is inherently flawed. It's just an argument from personal incredulity (AB's favourite fallacy by the way) - how would anyone ever demonstrate it without saying something like: "X happened/I can't imagine how X happened/therefore miracle"? The only way to establish such a thing would be to find a way first to eliminate every possible naturalistic explanation there could be.

Do you suppose AB has a way to do that, or does he just reach for the woo that happens to appeal?

Hmmm...     

[Nearly Sane]

I've prayed every day for the tedious maundering music of Mumford and feckin Sons to be erased from the universe, and you know what's happened? Ed Feckin Sheeran!!.

[Rhiannon]

Sing!

[Shaker]

http://tinyurl.com/ybgkdncw

[wigginhall]

Well, AB prayed for Christian governance, and we got the DUP!   Hallelujah!

[Nearly Sane]

Well, AB prayed for Christian governance, and we got the DUP!   Hallelujah!

So when they burn the effigies of Catholics at the weekend, I presume he will be cheering. We haven't heard back from him about his support for an organisation involved in sectarian murder.

[Shaker]

So when they burn the effigies of Catholics at the weekend, I presume he will be cheering. We haven't heard back from him about his support for an organisation involved in sectarian murder.

You won't hear back from him about anything but fallacy and bald assertion.

[floo]

You fail to understand that your own existence is entirely dependent on the existence of God.  We need God in order to exist, otherwise there would be nothing.

That is your belief, it is not a proven fact. I wonder how you would feel if in your lifetime science is able to prove beyond all doubt our existence as nothing to do with a god?

[Nearly Sane]

That is your belief, it is not a proven fact. I wonder how you would feel if in your lifetime science is able to prove beyond all doubt our existence as nothing to do with a god?

Now that is a crap hypothetical. Science is methodologically naturalistic, so it isn't, doesn't and by definition cannot cover this.

[Alan Burns]

Not according to your own description, Alan,(Post 1919) where you commented on the miraculous healing taking place 'just minutes' after you had read from the end of Psalm 91, in the hospital where he was at the time.

Perhaps your memory just  isn't that reliable at all

You are getting two things mixed up.
I was told the healing of the cleft palate occurred on a bus journey. 

The healing of the aneurysm took place in Blackpool Victoria hospital.

[floo]

Now that is a crap hypothetical. Science is methodologically naturalistic, so it isn't, doesn't and by definition cannot cover this.

How do you know that science will not eventually be able to discover how the universe came about, sometime in the distant future?