Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3901261 times)

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19250 on: July 04, 2017, 09:30:27 AM »
Weird how Christians are oblivious to their own practice of human sacrifice. Wasn't that long ago either. Although to be fair witches were usually hung, at least in England. It was other Christians that were burned.

They were burned in my home island, apparently one of the fields belonging to my childhood home, hosted this evil practice! >:(

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19251 on: July 04, 2017, 09:40:55 AM »
Weird how Christians are oblivious to their own practice of human sacrifice. Wasn't that long ago either. Although to be fair witches were usually hung, at least in England. It was other Christians that were burned.
Many evil things have been done in the name of Christianity, but not endorsed by it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19252 on: July 04, 2017, 09:42:20 AM »
Many evil things have been done in the name of Christianity, but not endorsed by it.
... and as we all know by now, plenty of evil things have been endorsed by it.

Details available on request.

If you need them.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19253 on: July 04, 2017, 09:43:35 AM »
Many evil things have been done in the name of Christianity, but not endorsed by it.

Slavery is completely endorsed.

Exodus 21

Please read, and then come back and spin it so that it does not say what it actually says.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19254 on: July 04, 2017, 09:51:45 AM »
Slavery is completely endorsed.

Exodus 21

Please read, and then come back and spin it so that it does not say what it actually says.
But it was the teachings of the New Testament commanding us to love our fellow human beings which inspired William Wilberforce and his group of fellow Christians help abolish slavery.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19255 on: July 04, 2017, 09:54:05 AM »
But it was the teachings of the New Testament commanding us to love our fellow human beings which inspired William Wilberforce and his group of fellow Christians help abolish slavery.
Looks like not everybody got that memo: http://tinyurl.com/y8lsqd2t

"(Slavery) was established by decree of Almighty God … it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation … it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." - Jefferson Davis
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:08:37 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19256 on: July 04, 2017, 10:00:30 AM »
And in our modern secular society, the most dangerous place for a human being has become its own Mother's womb.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19257 on: July 04, 2017, 10:03:24 AM »
And in our modern secular society, the most dangerous place for a human being has become its own Mother's womb.
No idea of the relevance of this to slavery, but no ... the most dangerous place for a human being is a lot of places. Syria. Tower blocks. Motorways.

Modern secular society (not nearly secular enough, in my view) suits me just fine. I can't think of any other arrangement which puts such a high price on the rights, the freedoms and the autonomy of the individual.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:05:36 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19258 on: July 04, 2017, 10:08:11 AM »
And in our modern secular society, the most dangerous place for a human being has become its own Mother's womb.

Women are such murderous bitches.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19259 on: July 04, 2017, 10:09:26 AM »
Women are such murderous bitches.
What with their reproductive freedom and control over their own bodies and all that.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19260 on: July 04, 2017, 10:11:43 AM »
What with their reproductive freedom and control over their own bodies and all that.

It's not even freedom, it's just necessity and safety a lot of the time. Not to mention dealing with coercion and abuse.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19261 on: July 04, 2017, 10:16:46 AM »
Necessity and safety don't mean diddly without freedom though.

Ask Savita Halappanavar.

Oh, no, you can't. Ask her husband instead.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19262 on: July 04, 2017, 10:20:59 AM »
AB,

Quote
Prior to the onset of Christianity, the most advanced civilization in the western world had fellow human beings being torn apart in the arena of the coliseum for public entertainment.  Not sure how this fits in with the evolutionary traits of moral values.  Thankfully, Christian teaching promotes the virtues of love and compassion for our fellow human beings.

Given your fondness for driving a coach and four through logic, you may as well fabricate your own history too I suppose.

Not that this will impinge on your personal reality, but for what it’s worth anatomically modern humans first appear in the fossil record in Africa about 195,000 years ago. In the 193,000 years or so before the NT was produced we weren’t slaughtering each other wholesale pending a book of rules to tell us how we should behave. If we were, we would long since have died out. To the contrary, for good evolutionary reasons we developed our sense of altruism, of co-operation, of solidarity that forms the bedrock of morality: hunters worked together for better results, gatherers shared childcare etc.

Of course there was tribal warfare, cruelty etc but (as others have noted already) there were also societies the codified behaviours we would consider morally good long before Christianity showed up.   

And speaking of Christianity by the way, you seem to forget that its “holy” texts contain some pretty filthy stuff too, and that in its name the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, institutionalised child abuse and many other unspeakable acts were committed too.

You can kid yourself that the morally good things we do happen because of a religious faith to which you happen to subscribe, just as you can kid yourself that you have cogent logic for that faith even though it seems you have the time only to share here your bad arguments for it. You cannot though be surprised when those with functioning intellects take the time explain to you why you are wrong on both counts.   
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:25:14 AM by bluehillside »
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God

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19263 on: July 04, 2017, 10:22:09 AM »
Necessity and safety don't mean diddly without freedom though.

Ask Savita Halappanavar.

Oh, no, you can't. Ask her husband instead.

Still, the fact that reproductive rights exist has given Alan a lovely misogynistic soundbite.   

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19264 on: July 04, 2017, 10:25:04 AM »
But it was the teachings of the New Testament commanding us to love our fellow human beings which inspired William Wilberforce and his group of fellow Christians help abolish slavery.

You're a beyond hopeless case Alan, you remind me of one of these people that you hear of from time to time, who accidentally walk through plate glass doors/windows, they would say they couldn't see it either.

You've become a bit of a numpty on this one Alan, I don't suppose you've considered having a muddled thoughts overhaul or perhaps go for a course on psychology, I doubt it'd cure you but without a doubt it would assist you with your attempts at reasoning.   

ippy

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19265 on: July 04, 2017, 10:27:11 AM »
Still, the fact that reproductive rights exist has given Alan a lovely misogynistic soundbite.
Well ... the weaker vessel, what do you expect?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:34:17 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19266 on: July 04, 2017, 10:30:49 AM »
And in our modern secular society, the most dangerous place for a human being has become its own Mother's womb.
What has secularism got to do with the rate of natural muscarriage as set up by your god?

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19267 on: July 04, 2017, 10:34:14 AM »
But it was the teachings of the New Testament commanding us to love our fellow human beings which inspired William Wilberforce and his group of fellow Christians help abolish slavery.

Why would he do that, as that is AGAINST the teachings of the bible.

Why did your god sanction slavery?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19268 on: July 04, 2017, 10:39:04 AM »
Slavery is completely endorsed.

Exodus 21

Please read, and then come back and spin it so that it does not say what it actually says.

Paul urges slaves to honour their masters! >:(

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19269 on: July 04, 2017, 11:51:13 AM »
Prior to the onset of Christianity, the most advanced civilization in the western world had fellow human beings being torn apart in the arena of the coliseum for public entertainment.  Not sure how this fits in with the evolutionary traits of moral values.  Thankfully, Christian teaching promotes the virtues of love and compassion for our fellow human beings.

Plenty of civilizations, ideologies and religions have been responsible for much death and suffering, mainly because of their attempts to control their subjects or proposed subjects. Christianity was no different, as has been demonstrated most adequately by others posting here. Our moral values are only part of the story. There are many other evolutionary traits which run alongside them. However as my post was a response to your (in my eyes) rather silly statement about not realising where our sense of morality derives from, I focused directly on my own sense of morality, and from whence it comes.

In your post 19239, you asked: " can you not ponder what type of morality we would have inherited without our Christian heritage?". My answer is that 'our Christian heritage' has been the source of a vast amount of misery and violence which to my mind  has overwhelmed the good elements that also exist within it. I cannot possibly conjecture if it would have been much different if another religion had held sway. I think the Age of Enlightenment and Reason was a turning point as regards present moral thinking in the West, with people like Erasmus, Spinoza and Locke leading the way.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19270 on: July 04, 2017, 12:36:22 PM »
Plenty of civilizations, ideologies and religions have been responsible for much death and suffering, mainly because of their attempts to control their subjects or proposed subjects. Christianity was no different, as has been demonstrated most adequately by others posting here. Our moral values are only part of the story. There are many other evolutionary traits which run alongside them. However as my post was a response to your (in my eyes) rather silly statement about not realising where our sense of morality derives from, I focused directly on my own sense of morality, and from whence it comes.

In your post 19239, you asked: " can you not ponder what type of morality we would have inherited without our Christian heritage?". My answer is that 'our Christian heritage' has been the source of a vast amount of misery and violence which to my mind  has overwhelmed the good elements that also exist within it. I cannot possibly conjecture if it would have been much different if another religion had held sway. I think the Age of Enlightenment and Reason was a turning point as regards present moral thinking in the West, with people like Erasmus, Spinoza and Locke leading the way.
Christianity has certainly been misused to indulge the self centred traits of people who have not embraced the true Christian message.  And what will have happened to the works from such moral thinkers as Erasmus, Spinoza and Locke in two thousand years time?  Jesus never wrote anything which was passed on, yet two thousand years on He remains the most influential human being who ever lived.  On the evolutionary time scale we are still in the early stages of the impact of Christianity. 
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19271 on: July 04, 2017, 12:43:03 PM »
Christianity has certainly been misused to indulge the self centred traits of people who have not embraced the true Christian message.
There's a name for that fallacy, Alan  ;)

Quote
what will have happened to the works from such moral thinkers as Erasmus, Spinoza and Locke in two thousand years time?
Predictions are very difficult, especially about the future.

Quote
Jesus never wrote anything which was passed on, yet two thousand years on He remains the most influential human being who ever lived.  On the evolutionary time scale we are still in the early stages of the impact of Christianity.
The evidence actually says otherwise, but don't let being wrong stop you - it never has before. In what for convenience we call the first or the developed world adherence to Christianity is eroding year on year - not just in Europe, as you'd expect, but even in formerly atypically religious nations such as the USA.

Since you seem to be in the speculation business, it's every bit as possible that two millennia from now Christianity will have gone the way of Graeco-Roman religion - a few adherents here and there, but essentially defunct. Why not? The world is littered with dead religions. They're born, they live, and they also die. There is nothing - absolutely nothing - that makes Christianity exempt from this process.

Nothing at all.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:52:14 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19272 on: July 04, 2017, 12:43:47 PM »
Still, the fact that reproductive rights exist has given Alan a lovely misogynistic soundbite.

No doubt, fueled by his reading of C.S.Lewis, who, showed himself to be merely a child of his times, rather than some sort of expansive thinker, when he suggested the man should be the head of the Christian household when disagreement arises. And one of his well thought out reasons for suggesting this?

Quote
If there must be a head, why the man? Well, firstly is there any very serious wish that it should be the woman?

P113 of 'Mere Christianity' C.S.Lewis
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19273 on: July 04, 2017, 12:45:59 PM »
That's a new one to me - thanks for that. Tucked away for future reference the next time somebody peddles the "Oh, Lewis was simply maaaaahvellous" line  >:(
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19274 on: July 04, 2017, 12:51:01 PM »
AB,

Quote
Christianity has certainly been misused to indulge the self centred traits of people who have not embraced the true Christian message.

Not that you care, but that mistake is called the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

Quote
And what will have happened to the works from such moral thinkers as Erasmus, Spinoza and Locke in two thousand years time?

I have no idea – and nor have you. With a bit of luck though, they’d survive and develop.
 
Quote
Jesus never wrote anything which was passed on, yet two thousand years on He remains the most influential human being who ever lived.

The second part is debatable, and the first part is yet another piece of fallacious thinking called survivorship bias. That one sect survived and flourished while another did not tells you nothing about the their relative qualities. Had it been a different sect that caught the wind – for example, by being sanctioned by the Roman emperor at the time – you’d be saying the same thing about that one. 

Quote
On the evolutionary time scale we are still in the early stages of the impact of Christianity.

You have no idea whether that’s true – for all you know rationalism could drive out irrationalism, or different faiths could replace the one you happen to have.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:53:03 PM by bluehillside »
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God