Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3878836 times)

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19450 on: July 05, 2017, 04:13:47 PM »
No, Actual ability and derived ability do not need to exist in a situation in which there is a ''first''.

They can exist eternally but there can be no derived without an actual.

Objections to the first cause go something like. The universe could be infinite or just pop out of nothing.

But actual ability is in any case needed for derived ability for reasons i've spelt out...... and derived ability is observed.

Derived ability has to have derived its ability from something. That something either has to have derived its ability from something, or else it has non derived ability. So the question arises, if there are non derived abilities, where are they and how do we find them? One can conjecture till the cows come home, but without actual evidence of these non derived abilities, it's just a conjecture very much the same as the idea that everything must have a cause, except the thing that is the cause.

In many ways the way you have expressed it doesn't have the power of the classic 'first cause' argument because, even if we take on board the idea of non derived abilities, it immediately suggests multiple non derived abilities. They cannot be derived from a God, because they are non derivable, as you, yourself, have emphasised.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:15:53 PM by enki »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19451 on: July 05, 2017, 04:14:37 PM »
Vlad - Just to say thank you for answering my question - multiple pages ago!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19452 on: July 05, 2017, 04:16:42 PM »
Well, science deals with cause and effect.
Something that comes from nothing is er, just effect.
Is it? Show me 'nothing' and demonstrate this.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19453 on: July 05, 2017, 04:18:30 PM »
Well, science deals with cause and effect.
Something that comes from nothing is er, just effect.

Quantum mechanics has effect before causes.

Are you saying that something cannot come from nothing?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19454 on: July 05, 2017, 04:20:59 PM »
Derived ability has to have derived its ability from something. That something either has to have derived its ability from something, or else it has non derived ability. So the question arises, if there are non derived abilities, where are they and how do we find them? One can conjecture till the cows come home, but without actual evidence of these non derived abilities, it's just a conjecture very much the same as the idea that everything must have a cause, except the thing that is the cause.

In many ways the way you have expressed it doesn't have the power of the classic 'first cause' argument because, even if we take on board the idea of a non derived abilities, it immediately suggests multiple non derived abilities. They cannot be derived from a God, because they are non derivable, as you, yourself, have emphasised.
Yes...but there is an extremely strong case to say: derived ability though has to be evidence of actual ability.

Multiple actual ability is an interesting conjecture.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19455 on: July 05, 2017, 04:22:12 PM »
Quantum mechanics has effect before causes.

That is still cause and effect though.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19456 on: July 05, 2017, 04:22:52 PM »
God hasn't advocated slavery. He advocates Eden. Any problems are of Human origin. God works around that.

Eden? As an ideal to be achieved, or as some state of aboriginal perfection from which we have descended? I take it that you don't think the story of Adam and Eve is literally true, but if not, then presumably you think there was some kind of Golden Age? If so, when?

However, even suggesting Eden at all and trying to link it with the unfolding of the Biblical texts creates quite a few problems. The story seems to have been incorporated very late into the canon - most of the prophets don't refer to it at all, apart from a few references in early genealogies. So little importance is given to it that it doesn't get any further significant reference until Ecclesiasticus in the Apocrypha - and there Eve gets all the blame.
Christ made one reference to the Eden story*, when opposing divorce. Thereafter, it's all down to St Paul who really bigged it up.
However, if you choose to read the Old Testament entirely within the context of humans falling short of an aboriginal perfection, as if the ancient Hebrews were perfectly aware of their transgressions, you have further problems. There were five Old Testament covenants (The Adamic, the Noachic, the Abrahamic, the Mosaic and the Davidic) and not only do these contradict each other, there is not too much evidence that the original compilers of each were all that aware of the existence of the others.
Therefore, I'd suggest that the laws concerning slavery in Exodus etc were not perfectly reasonable pragmatic injunctions promoted by God to help the ancient Hebrews on their path back to divine righteousness, but simply  entirely human edicts issued by a priestly class intent on consolidating a beleagured people in a hostile region.

*Or perhaps not at all - he may have simply been referring to the Priestly account in Genesis 1.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:29:05 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19457 on: July 05, 2017, 04:24:26 PM »
Quantum mechanics has effect before causes.

That is still cause and effect though. If not cause and then effect.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19458 on: July 05, 2017, 04:24:59 PM »
Yes...but there is an extremely strong case to say: derived ability though has to be evidence of actual ability.

Multiple actual ability is an interesting conjecture.
Is there? You haven't defined what you are talking about coherently, never mind made a case.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19459 on: July 05, 2017, 04:26:12 PM »
That is still cause and effect though. If not cause and then effect.
Reread that post. And then try with something that isn't contradictory.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19460 on: July 05, 2017, 04:26:37 PM »
Quantum mechanics has effect before causes.

Are you saying that something cannot come from nothing?
I think i'm saying derived ability necessarily infers actual ability.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19461 on: July 05, 2017, 04:28:25 PM »
Reread that post. And then try with something that isn't contradictory.
I'm not the one claiming cause precedes effect. That as Be Rationale tells me is quantum mechanics.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19462 on: July 05, 2017, 04:30:48 PM »
I'm not the one claiming cause precedes effect. That as Be Rationale tells me is quantum mechanics.
Er, nope he seems to be saying that cause and effect do not work there.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19463 on: July 05, 2017, 04:31:50 PM »
I think i'm saying derived ability necessarily infers actual ability.
Do you mean 'implies'?

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19464 on: July 05, 2017, 04:33:04 PM »
That is still cause and effect though.

Is it?

Are you saying there has to be a cause for everything?

This would include your god of course as that would be in the everything.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19465 on: July 05, 2017, 04:35:33 PM »
Is there? You haven't defined what you are talking about coherently, never mind made a case.
Enki seems to have understood and has extended the argument in a non monotheistic direction and has done so without abuse.

......Don't you wish your atheism was hot like that?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19466 on: July 05, 2017, 04:40:08 PM »
Is it?

Are you saying there has to be a cause for everything?

This would include your god of course as that would be in the everything.
No, I am saying derived ability necessarily infers actual ability. actual ability is dependent on nothing since it would then be derived.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19467 on: July 05, 2017, 04:43:36 PM »
Enki seems to have understood and has extended the argument in a non monotheistic direction and has done so without abuse.

......Don't you wish your atheism was hot like that?
What is abusive about pointing out your lack of coherence?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19468 on: July 05, 2017, 04:44:32 PM »
No, I am saying derived ability necessarily infers actual ability. actual ability is dependent on nothing since it would then be derived.
and again do you mean 'implies'?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19469 on: July 05, 2017, 04:45:56 PM »
What is abusive about pointing out your lack of coherence?
It's the tone of your posts.

The ideas are coherent enough for Enki. My lack of coherence is thus a matter of opinion.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19470 on: July 05, 2017, 04:46:55 PM »
and again do you mean 'implies'?

I, like you, prefer to use 'infer' to mean 'deduce', and 'imply' to mean 'suggest'. It certainly makes for clarity if this distinction is maintained. But I believe the use of 'infer' as a synonym fo 'imply' has quite a track record.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19471 on: July 05, 2017, 04:51:21 PM »
It's the tone of your posts.

The ideas are coherent enough for Enki. My lack of coherence is thus a matter of opinion.
But not abuse.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19472 on: July 05, 2017, 04:52:07 PM »
On the subject of Slavery, it was God who freed humans from being a slave to the uncontrollable forces of nature by giving us the ability to consciously choose our own destiny.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19473 on: July 05, 2017, 04:54:50 PM »
I, like you, prefer to use 'infer' to mean 'deduce', and 'imply' to mean 'suggest'. It certainly makes for clarity if this distinction is maintained. But I believe the use of 'infer' as a synonym fo 'imply' has quite a track record.
Mmm I don't 'prefer' the use. It's just what I understand what is  usually understood as meaning. I know that people get them confused but I don't know if that is what Vlad is doing here.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 05:20:04 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19474 on: July 05, 2017, 04:57:29 PM »
On the subject of Slavery, it was God who freed humans from being a slave to the uncontrollable forces of nature by giving us the ability to consciously choose our own destiny.
So humans existed without god creating them and during that time were subject to the uncontrollable forces of nature till god controlled those forces? Seems an odd and contradictory take.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 05:02:00 PM by Nearly Sane »