Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

I'm going to have to be 'that guy' here - I have a prior concept of Venus and a prior concept of mermaids so I know what the possibility of Venusian mermaids would entail (where to go looking; how I would know if we found one etc.) but I can't say the same of gods - I don't understand what it is the possibility of that I'm being asked to entertain.

Yes, which is why in my critique I included: "I’m leaving aside for now your definitional problems with “God” and “spiritual” by the way".

It troubles AB not a jot that his terms are incoherent, which is why the response to them should be ignosticism. The only way to to consider the "logic" he thinks supports him though is to pretend that that's not the case. Turns out that what he meant all along (he says) was, "anything's possible" (though why he spends so long with broken arguments that wouldn't address that commonplace in any case is anyone's guess), but he seems to have no concept of needing a connecting logic from "anything's possible" to "the conjecture "God" is probable".

As he doesn't seem even to be aware of the problem I'm not optimistic of an answer, but hey - you never know.

     

[SusanDoris]

When I check in with this thread and am faced with a couple of AB's posts, I begin  to suck in my teeth and wince!   Fortunately, however, there are always enough contrasting, rational posts with which to agree.

[floo]

When I check in with this thread and am faced with a couple of AB's posts, I begin  to suck in my teeth and wince!   Fortunately, however, there are always enough contrasting, rational posts with which to agree.

That is not fair on your poor teeth!

[SusanDoris]

That is not fair on your poor teeth!

[wigginhall]

What the hell is the absolute truth behind our existence?   All I see behind me is the wall. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

What the hell is the absolute truth behind our existence?   All I see behind me is the wall.

Ah, but is it an absolute wall...?

It's quite a conceit isn't it - that a vanishingly insignificant speck of near nothingness on a small planet in a tiny backwater of the universe should presume to know absolute truths about anything despite having no discernible means to demonstrate any such thing.

[Alan Burns]

msg 19589 AB Dont you find it all just a little muddled that you think you got something, others havnt(whatever that something is). Its all garbled. Your god could not say it straight, direct, no interpretation etc in these modern times to everyone. And your left with a "possibility" Sure it could be a possibility but the odds arnt on your side by a country mile. Whose fault is that?

By acknowledging that God is a possibility, it allows you to open the door to absolute certainty.

[Shaker]

By acknowledging that God is a possibility, it allows you to open the door to absolute certainty.

1. How do you get from 'possibility' to 'absolute certainty'?

2. What on earth is good about absolute certainty anyway?

[torridon]

By acknowledging that God is a possibility, it allows you to open the door to absolute certainty.

That would be a reason for not acknowledging that God is a possibility then.  Certainty is the hallmark of a closed mind.  Jihadists embrace death because they are certain of their place in Paradise.  None of us is omniscient, none of us is infallible; by humbly acknowledging the limits of our knowledge we allow knowledge to grow; by acknowledging that we are only human, it is easier for us to accept that we might be wrong and to learn from our mistakes.  A fixed mind is a net loss to humanity.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That would be a reason for not acknowledging that God is a possibility then.  Certainty is the hallmark of a closed mind.  Jihadists embrace death because they are certain of their place in Paradise.  None of us is omniscient, none of us is infallible; by humbly acknowledging the limits of our knowledge we allow knowledge to grow; by acknowledging that we are only human, it is easier for us to accept that we might be wrong and to learn from our mistakes.  A fixed mind is a net loss to humanity.

A classic.
First Torridon turns acknowledging a possibility into a certainty.
Then he goes nuclear by turning talking about Jihadis

Are you certain of what you are saying Torrid?
Are you certain of your prescription?
Are you certain nothing can be certain?....And is not acknowledging possibility really the way to ensure nothing is certain.

Sorry but total crap on your part has to be picked over.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That would be a reason for not acknowledging that God is a possibility then.  Certainty is the hallmark of a closed mind.  Jihadists embrace death because they are certain of their place in Paradise.  None of us is omniscient, none of us is infallible; by humbly acknowledging the limits of our knowledge we allow knowledge to grow; by acknowledging that we are only human, it is easier for us to accept that we might be wrong and to learn from our mistakes.  A fixed mind is a net loss to humanity.

So Torrid which is it?........... Can't be certain or shouldn't be certain?

You are conflating knowledge of certain things with 'Knowledge' in general. Following the logic that would make someone who is certain that the answer to 1+1=2 is on the slippery slope to becoming as bad as a closed minded Jihadi.....Oh the slippery slope fallacy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That would be a reason for not acknowledging that God is a possibility then.  Certainty is the hallmark of a closed mind.  Jihadists embrace death because they are certain of their place in Paradise.  None of us is omniscient, none of us is infallible; by humbly acknowledging the limits of our knowledge we allow knowledge to grow; by acknowledging that we are only human, it is easier for us to accept that we might be wrong and to learn from our mistakes.  A fixed mind is a net loss to humanity.

Conflating knowledge of God in the biblical and religious sense with knowledge of everything.

I could have trust in God and know nothing about science.
I could then learn everything I could about science and it's methods and agree with all it's current findings.
At what point does science forbid you from having knowledge of God?

[floo]

By acknowledging that God is a possibility, it allows you to open the door to absolute certainty.

That isn't the case. I believed there was a god when I was a kid and sincerely prayed that I would have some feeling of its presence, but it never came through for me.

[Shaker]

A classic.
First Torridon turns acknowledging a possibility into a certainty.

I think you'll find that a more careful reading of the last few posts will reveal to you that this (I quote) "total crap" actually came courtesy of Balls-Up Burns, viz.: "By acknowledging that God is a possibility, it allows you to open the door to absolute certainty." (Vide supra #19608).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That isn't the case. I believed there was a god when I was a kid and sincerely prayed that I would have some feeling of its presence, but it never came through for me.

At least you were open to the possibility in the first instance and not closed in the first place like Torridon recommends.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think you'll find that a more careful reading of the last few posts will reveal to you that this (I quote) "total crap" actually came courtesy of Balls-Up Burns, viz.: "By acknowledging that God is a possibility, it allows you to open the door to absolute certainty." (Vide supra #19608).

Er, it's Torridons response Shaker. He advocates a kind of close mindedness himself in the defence of open mindedness vis:

And certainly never, ever leave your self open to the possibility of absolute certainties.

[Shaker]

Er, it's Torridons response Shaker.

Er, no, it's your misattribution to Torridon of a position actually espoused by the egregious Burns.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Er, no, it's your misattribution to Torridon of a position actually espoused by the egregious Burns.

And Torridon's reply is we can be absolutely certain we cannot be absolutely certain or we shouldn't on any account be absolutely certain?

[torridon]

And Torridon's reply is we can be absolutely certain we cannot be absolutely certain or we shouldn't on any account be absolutely certain?

Alan advocates absolute certainty as if it were a good thing. I respond to demonstrate why an open mind is better than a closed/fixed/certain mind. 

Quite simple and uncontroversial I would have thought, so why they flurry of misrepresentations and strawmen ?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Alan advocates absolute certainty as if it were a good thing. I respond to demonstrate why an open mind is better than a closed/fixed/certain mind. 

Quite simple and uncontroversial I would have thought, so why they flurry of misrepresentations and strawmen ?

As a Christian I think I know what Alan is getting at and I think I know where you are coming from, although your dogmatic stance against becoming  absolutely certain is suspect and contradictory.

I think Alan's idea of absolute certainty is like being certain you are born or certain you have written your e mail.

I would not have used Alan's words in the context of your collective antitheist attitudes.

But that is not why I replied which was to critique your dogmatism that we shouldn't put ourselves in the position of other than fence squatting. That is evasion of a possibility.

[torridon]

As a Christian I think I know what Alan is getting at and I think I know where you are coming from, although your dogmatic stance against becoming  absolutely certain is suspect and contradictory.

I don't see it that way, there is nothing dogmatic about trying to keep an open mind, in fact, it is pretty much the opposite of dogmatic. The history of humanity is littered with cases of appalling outcomes due to people becoming fixed in their thinking and unable to see other people's point of view. Being open to the fact that we might be wrong is of immeasurable value.

[torridon]

But that is not why I replied which was to critique your dogmatism that we shouldn't put ourselves in the position of other than fence squatting. That is evasion of a possibility.

Being open minded does not equate to fence sitting, rather it means we can take a provisional view on things in the knowledge that we might be wrong

[ippy]

By acknowledging that God is a possibility, it allows you to open the door to absolute certainty.

The only good thing about these views of yours Alan and I suppose the actions that follow on from them, it is it's only your own time you're wasting.

As I've said the only thing that bothers me about the nonsense you believe is when people like you do everything you can to plant your rubbish into the minds of vulnerable young children and unfortunatly they end up being so defiant/impervious to any kind of rational thought on the subject just as you are and the poor others that have been rounded up too, unable to escape away from these primitive ideas that have zero evidence that might have supported them.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't see it that way, there is nothing dogmatic about trying to keep an open mind, in fact, it is pretty much the opposite of dogmatic. The history of humanity is littered with cases of appalling outcomes due to people becoming fixed in their thinking and unable to see other people's point of view. Being open to the fact that we might be wrong is of immeasurable value.

Slippery slope fallacy?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Possibly you missed my reply 19594 when I took the trouble to falsify your position line-by-line?

By acknowledging that God is a possibility, it allows you to open the door to absolute certainty.

Two problems there:

First, there is no “door” of “it’s impossible”. I’ve explained this to you already – no-one says that either your conjecture “God” or my conjecture unicorns is impossible, so that’s not a door that needs opening.

Second though inasmuch as there is a closed door it’s the one that stops you from getting to “absolute certainty” about anything. How would you propose to eliminate even the possibility that you’re wrong?