Searching for GOD...

[Maeght]

You misunderstand what I mean by free will.  I mean the freedom to wilfully choose between two or more alternatives.

To be able to make any conscious choice requires a defining event which triggers the choice.  If the event is just an inevitable reaction to previous physical events it is not a choice - just a pre determined reaction.

Judt adding in wilfully doesn't change things. What determines which option our will decides on?

[Alan Burns]

We’re some 19,000 posts in now – if you still can’t grasp the straightforward logic that invalidates this then I really can’t see it happening ever.

And it appears that you fail to grasp the reality that a conscious choice is not pre determined by the uncontrollable consequences of physical chain reaction.  Your claim that a conscious choice just "appears" to be a choice is in itself illogical.

[Alan Burns]

Jut adding in wilfully doesn't change things. What determines which option our will decides on?

A physical event in the brain which is not pre determined by previous physical events, but by the conscious will of the human soul.

[Alan Burns]

Rather nice article.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/blog/neuraptitude/201608/illusion-choice-the-myth-free-will%3Famp

'Reality is as flexible and as pliable as the mind that we use to perceive it. The self-doubts, anxieties, and judgments that so often dominate our consciousness can be restructured using the same mental tools that our brain employs to retroactively insert the perception of free will.'

And what defines the events which drive these mental acrobatics?  If everything in our brain is a consequence of previous physical events there can be no freedom to even think.

[Shaker]

And it appears that you fail to grasp the reality [...]

Your personal belief, you mean.

[Alan Burns]

Of course we make choices. But they aren't the product of 'free will'.

Are we not free to choose between two or more alternatives? If we are then this is what I mean by free will - simply the freedom to choose.

[Shaker]

Are we not free to choose between two or more alternatives?

How would we know that we are thus free?

N.B. Simply parrotting "Because it feels as though it is" is not an acceptable answer.

[Maeght]

A physical event in the brain which is not pre determined by previous physical events, but by the conscious will of the human soul.

That is not what I asked. What determines which option the conscious will chooses? On what basis does the will make a choice?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

And it appears that you fail to grasp the reality that a conscious choice is not pre determined by the uncontrollable consequences of physical chain reaction.

And you fail to grasp the reality that it is.

A physical event in the brain which is not pre determined by previous physical events, but by the conscious will of the human soul.

Which is still incoherent and contradictory no matter how many times you repeat it. You can invent a “human soul” (and even it seems arbitrarily deny this “soul” to other self-aware creatures) if you want to to explain your perception of reality, but you cannot free it from the binary options of deterministic vs random. If you genuinely think otherwise, can I interest you in this four-sided triangle I have for sale?   

And what defines the events which drive these mental acrobatics?  If everything in our brain is a consequence of previous physical events there can be no freedom to even think.

Of course there can. It’s just that “thinking” is what consciousness feels like.

Are we not free to choose between two or more alternatives? If we are then this is what I mean by free will - simply the freedom to choose.

Not in the sense you mean it, no – that would mean we’d also have to be free of the rule of cause and effect. 

[torridon]

The key word here is "want" which implies that an action is driven by conscious will.  Though influenced  by past events, humans can ultimately choose what they want to do from the feasible options - we are not nature's robots driven by the uncontrollable forces of the physical universe.

and as been pointed out by others, we do not, can not, choose what to want. Our wants, ie our will, is a consequence of what has gone before and we cannot change the past.

[torridon]

You misunderstand what I mean by free will.  I mean the freedom to wilfully choose between two or more alternatives.

To be able to make any conscious choice requires a defining event which triggers the choice.  If the event is just an inevitable reaction to previous physical events it is not a choice - just a pre determined reaction.

yes, now you're getting there; choice is an illusion, ultimately.

[Shaker]

yes, now you're getting there; choice is an illusion, ultimately.

But ... but ... but ... souls, and God, and stuff ...

[Rhiannon]

and as been pointed out by others, we do not, can not, choose what to want. Our wants, ie our will, is a consequence of what has gone before and we cannot change the past.

Yes. We can't change the past, although we can reframe how we think about it. That's not a matter of choice though either.

[Alan Burns]

So how can any form of freedom exist in a universe entirely driven by deterministic rules of physically driven cause and effect events?

[Gordon]

So how can any form of freedom exist in a universe entirely driven by deterministic rules of physically driven cause and effect events?

Leaving aside your favourite 'deterministic rules of physically driven cause and effect events' take - perhaps freedom doesn't 'exist' in the way you imagine it does.

[Maeght]

So how can any form of freedom exist in a universe entirely driven by deterministic rules of physically driven cause and effect events?

How about answering the questions you've been asked?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

So how can any form of freedom exist in a universe entirely driven by deterministic rules of physically driven cause and effect events?

1. Whether or not you like the idea of no ultimate freedom tells you nothing about the facts of the matter.

2. Lots of "forms" of freedom can exist – just not "ultimate" freedom.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

yes, now you're getting there; choice is an illusion, ultimately.

You have not adequately explained though response to novel situations.
I'm afraid you are just giving people another not to join this forum or abandon it.
I refer to non other than platitudinous pap peddled by amateurs.

[Alan Burns]

Leaving aside your favourite 'deterministic rules of physically driven cause and effect events' take - perhaps freedom doesn't 'exist' in the way you imagine it does.

So what form of freedom do you suppose can exist without spiritually driven intervention?

[Gordon]

So what form of freedom do you suppose can exist without spiritually driven intervention?

That's called 'begging the question', Alan - care to try again?

[Alan Burns]

Quote from: Alan Burns on Today at 07:40:58 PM

    So how can any form of freedom exist in a universe entirely driven by deterministic rules of physically driven cause and effect events?

How about answering the questions you've been asked?

Can I take that as a "don't know"?

[Shaker]

Can I take that as a "don't know?"

Why don't you take it exactly as put to.you for once?

[Rhiannon]

How about answering the questions you've been asked?

Can I take that as a "don't know"?

That's exactly how we are taking your evasion.

[Alan Burns]

That is not what I asked. What determines which option the conscious will chooses? On what basis does the will make a choice?

I thought I had previously explained that it is the God given power from the conscious will of the human soul.  Without this there can be no freedom of choice. 

[Shaker]

I thought I had previously explained that it is the God given power from the conscious will of the human soul.

Not explained, asserted.