Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3880895 times)

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19925 on: July 12, 2017, 03:10:26 PM »
If it feels like freedom, if it looks like freedom, if it sounds like freedom ... then it most likely is freedom, and the neuroscientists' findings may well be applicable to animals, but they have not been able to see the bigger picture regarding humans.
So I rejoice in my freedom to post on this forum.
I rejoice in my freedom to invite God into my life.
I rejoice in my freedom to accept Jesus Christ as my Saviour.
For this is why we have been given this amazing gift.
And the truth certainly does set us free.

Very nice for you.   I just wish you would stop using 'we' and 'us', as it sounds arrogant.   Other people have other ways.
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19926 on: July 12, 2017, 03:14:03 PM »
If it feels like freedom, if it looks like freedom, if it sounds like freedom ... then it most likely is freedom

How almost charmingly naive - it's as though science doesn't even exist for some people.

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and the neuroscientists' findings may well be applicable to animals, but they have not been able to see the bigger picture regarding humans.
Actually you have the smaller picture - about the size of a first-class stamp I'd say - rather than the bigger one. You have an emotional commitment to a belief system which insists that there is a clear bright line between 'humans' and 'animals', dividing all living things into two groups, viz., 1. humans and 2. all the others. In fact there is no such cordon; that's the big picture, the one that your fear won't let you see.

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So I rejoice in my freedom to post on this forum.
I rejoice in my freedom to invite God into my life.
I rejoice in my freedom to accept Jesus Christ as my Saviour.
For this is why we have been given this amazing gift.
And the truth certainly does set us free.
And the Assertatron will soon require refuelling yet again.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19927 on: July 12, 2017, 03:15:42 PM »
What is your definition of novelty?
No matter how rare absolute novelty is it should not be discounted to the subsequent reductionist mood music of 'now we have discounted that we now have the complete picture".

I know the brain is in a constant state of update, I pointed it out.

You need to explain how your deterministic model covers novelty.

I take novelty in this context to mean something which exhibits characteristics with which we are not familiar.

It seems to me that when the brain is confronted by novelty, it relates it as far as possible to existing information. It would then centre on the novelty aspect, taking in as much further information as possible, and then processing all that new information in order to make meaningful judgements wherever possible. Whatever decisions it reaches then becomes part of its existing information.

I suggest the reason why we seem to have an inbuilt desire to examine novelty is evolutionary. We, like other animals, have a sense of curiosity and surprise, which are normally pleasurable experiences, and this motivates us to focus on, explore, judge, and be interested in novelty.

Not sure though how all this relates to the idea of free will and determinism, though!
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19928 on: July 12, 2017, 03:17:12 PM »
If it feels like freedom, if it looks like freedom, if it sounds like freedom ... then it most likely is freedom, and the neuroscientists' findings may well be applicable to animals, but they have not been able to see the bigger picture regarding humans.
So I rejoice in my freedom to post on this forum.
I rejoice in my freedom to invite God into my life.
I rejoice in my freedom to accept Jesus Christ as my Saviour.
For this is why we have been given this amazing gift.
And the truth certainly does set us free.

I'm with Wiggs. Leave me out of your delusional head fuck.


Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19929 on: July 12, 2017, 03:33:47 PM »
Very nice for you.   I just wish you would stop using 'we' and 'us', as it sounds arrogant.   Other people have other ways.
It is your choice  ;)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19930 on: July 12, 2017, 03:36:20 PM »
It is your choice  ;)
So you chose to sound this unpleasantly arrogant?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19931 on: July 12, 2017, 03:36:23 PM »
Fallacy Boy,

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Torri's argument and arguments against AB read like the reductionist approach.

Only to you, presumably because you continue to abuse the term “reductionist”. As I’ve explained to you many times, to be reductionist you need to demonstrate that something has been reduced from.

Are you too a reductionist because you don’t accept my assertions about leprechauns?

Why not?

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Therefore…

Nope. The “therefore" fails because your premise fails.

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…with him a reduced, mechanistic and predetermined universe (which renders us as automata ) informs his neuroscience in a way which bolsters his reductionism.

No, it’s not “his” neuroscience it’s just neuroscience, and what informs it is evidence. If you think it should be informed by something else then, finally, you need to tell us what that might be.

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This is so tight that the mechanistic preprogramming would go against environmental updating of the brain, mind, consciousness and an unknown mechanism allowing the same to handle novelty.

You’ve really lost it now. Of course minds deal with novelty – they do it pretty much all the time because that’s the way they process information. If you have some special personal meaning for "novelty" though, then it’s for to you to tell us what it is.

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I'm not saying what that mechanism the fact is no one does is but the fact Torri seems to rule it out because it doesn't fit with his brand of reductionism. In other words he does a Dennett. Things effectively ignored, his model of the universe is therefore
preserved.

Stop lying. What torri (and other rationalists) do is to treat the world as if it is mechanistic, materialistic etc. Why? Because there’s no cogent reason to do otherwise, and nor will there be until and unless someone can come up with a means to validate their claims to the contrary. 

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Finally his approach demands higher definition of terms such as illusion and free from him.

Of course it doesn’t. Their everyday meanings are fine.

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I have given prompt questions for him to firm his definitions up on but am awaiting response.

No you haven’t. You’ve actually introduced terms without telling us what you mean by them, you’ve just ignored his perfectly clear explanations, and you’ve lied about his position. You’ve managed the trifecta of wrongness.   

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I wonder if Torridon shuns definition…

He doesn’t. Stop lying. They’re your terms – if you mean by them something other than their standard definitions then it’s your job to tell us what those meanings are and why.

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…because he would then be unable to appropriate swathes of holistically arrived at definition.

Stop lying. What he actually does is to rely on the definitions verifiable in dictionaries. If you want these terms to mean something else, then it’s your job to tell us what those meanings are and why.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19932 on: July 12, 2017, 03:42:56 PM »
If it feels like freedom, if it looks like freedom, if it sounds like freedom ... then it most likely is freedom, and the neuroscientists' findings may well be applicable to animals, but they have not been able to see the bigger picture regarding humans.
So I rejoice in my freedom to post on this forum.
I rejoice in my freedom to invite God into my life.
I rejoice in my freedom to accept Jesus Christ as my Saviour.
For this is why we have been given this amazing gift.
And the truth certainly does set us free.
Yes one wonders where they get their definition for freedom from if there is no freedom.
In any case they are left with the problem of reductionism informing neuroscience informing confirmation bias informing reductionism informing reductionism etc.

Searle and McGinn do not subscribe to a soul but they do shun the reductionist mood music which sings discount things in order to get the whole picture.

When statement of the obvious is removed we find little of substance.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19933 on: July 12, 2017, 03:44:32 PM »
So you chose to sound this unpleasantly arrogant?
Just pointing out the truth that we all have freedom to choose
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19934 on: July 12, 2017, 03:46:02 PM »
Just pointing out the truth that we all have freedom to choose

You seem to have redefined 'truth' to suit yourself.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19935 on: July 12, 2017, 03:47:09 PM »
AB,

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If it feels like freedom, if it looks like freedom, if it sounds like freedom ... then it most likely is freedom,…

And he opens up with the fallacy of the non sequitur. Lots of things feel like something other than what they are – would the prisoner whose prison walls were too far away to see feel free nonetheless?

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…and the neuroscientists' findings may well be applicable to animals…

You do know that people are animals right?

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…but they have not been able to see the bigger picture regarding humans.

And we should take that uneducated, unqualified, un-argued assertion over the findings of neuroscience why exactly?
 
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So I rejoice in my freedom to post on this forum.
I rejoice in my freedom to invite God into my life.
I rejoice in my freedom to accept Jesus Christ as my Saviour.
For this is why we have been given this amazing gift.

You are of course free to “rejoice” in anything you like, however bionkers it appears to those possessed of functioning intellects.
 
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And the truth certainly does set us free.


The epic irony of that will be lost on you completely.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19936 on: July 12, 2017, 03:51:19 PM »
Just pointing out the truth that we all have freedom to choose
Still struggling with the difference between 'truth' and 'my opinion', I see.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19937 on: July 12, 2017, 03:52:06 PM »
If it feels like freedom, if it looks like freedom, if it sounds like freedom ... then it most likely is freedom, and the neuroscientists' findings may well be applicable to animals, but they have not been able to see the bigger picture regarding humans.
So I rejoice in my freedom to post on this forum.
I rejoice in my freedom to invite God into my life.
I rejoice in my freedom to accept Jesus Christ as my Saviour.
For this is why we have been given this amazing gift.
And the truth certainly does set us free.

I am reminded of an incident told to me years ago by the then warden of the Hornsea RSPB Nature Reserve. He recounted how a passerby had found a tired bird on a road. It seemed to be a duck, certainly it looked like a duck but its back legs seemed to be dislocated as they were in an awkward position at the back of its body. So, he tried to correct their 'dislocation' but instead managed to break both its legs. In fact it was a great crested grebe, not a duck at all, and its legs were meant to be in that position. The warden had the unenviable task of putting the bird down.

Please don't count me in your plaintive assertions, Alan with your 'we' and 'us', because your thoughts are entirely your own,  certainly not mine.

Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19938 on: July 12, 2017, 03:53:34 PM »
Fallacy Boy,

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Yes one wonders where they get their definition for freedom from if there is no freedom.

Why would you wonder that when it’s been explained here so many times?

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In any case they are left with the problem of reductionism informing neuroscience informing confirmation bias informing reductionism informing reductionism etc.

Not sure why you keep lying about this. You cannot of course be “reductionist” unless there’s something to reduce from.

What would that be?   

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Searle and McGinn do not subscribe to a soul but they do shun the reductionist mood music which sings discount things in order to get the whole picture.

Fine. So what do they think has been reduced from in order to make the charge stick?

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When statement of the obvious is removed we find little of substance.


Just to be clear – you of all people are accusing others of having “little of substance”.

Seriously?

Seriously seriously though?

The poster here who has never once managed a substantive argument for anything has the sheer front to tell us that other people have little of substance?

I need a lie down.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19939 on: July 12, 2017, 03:58:36 PM »
Just pointing out the truth that we all have freedom to choose
No, you are asserting something and dismissing others arrogantly. I pity you. 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19940 on: July 12, 2017, 03:59:42 PM »
Fallacy Boy,

Only to you, presumably because you continue to abuse the term “reductionist”. As I’ve explained to you many times, to be reductionist you need to demonstrate that something has been reduced from.


Well at least you've answered the how do you cope with novelty. In your case you don't.
There's the reductionist method and then there is discounting.
Dennett Blackmore you Torridon Tom Cobley and all all sing the same mood music to the tune of discount to make things fit.
The self is the thing. Anybody who just turdpolishes that in order to avoid their approach to be found wanting is a scoundrel imho.

Illusion of self, feeling of freedom.....not good enough but wait live from the Lyceum its Hillside and his New Atheist crooners with your old favourite  "Meh, you have to have something to reduce from ".

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19941 on: July 12, 2017, 04:03:02 PM »
AB,

Torri had a nice analogy for this a while ago – it’s the same freedom a prisoner might have when the prison walls are so far away he’s barely aware of them, if at all.

The question I asked was how can any form of freedom exist in a world entirely driven by deterministic rules of physical cause and effect.   This answer seems to point to some form of restricted freedom and does not really answer the question.

So do you believe any form of freedom exists?
And if so, how does it work.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19942 on: July 12, 2017, 04:05:41 PM »
The question I asked was how can any form of freedom exist in a world entirely driven by deterministic rules of physical cause and effect.   This answer seems to point to some form of restricted freedom and does not really answer the question.

So do you believe any form of freedom exists?
And if so, how does it work.

It is perhaps true that you can feel 'free', but that might just be a feeling.

Perhaps the 'question' you're trying to answer is flawed in some way.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19943 on: July 12, 2017, 04:07:23 PM »
The question I asked was how can any form of freedom exist in a world entirely driven by deterministic rules of physical cause and effect.   This answer seems to point to some form of restricted freedom and does not really answer the question.

So do you believe any form of freedom exists?
And if so, how does it work.

How do you make your choices?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19944 on: July 12, 2017, 04:13:36 PM »
Fallacy Boy,

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Well at least you've answered the how do you cope with novelty. In your case you don't.

Why do you think lying helps you? Both torri and I have covered this – only for you to lie about the answers. We cope with novelty pretty mush all the time with no apparent difficulty. Why is this difficult for you to process?

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There's the reductionist method and then there is discounting.

So which one are you arguing for? If you didn’t mean “reductionist” after all, why have you repeated your mistake about it so many times?
 
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Dennett Blackmore you Torridon Tom Cobley and all all sing the same mood music to the tune of discount to make things fit.

What are you even trying to say here? We “discount” in the sense of “treat as possible but not probable” for the perfectly good reason that there’s no reason to do otherwise.

So?

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The self is the thing. Anybody who just turdpolishes that in order to avoid their approach to be found wanting is a scoundrel imho.

NURSE! HE’S FROTHING AT THE MOUTH AGAIN! NURSE!

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Illusion of self, feeling of freedom.....not good enough but wait live from the Lyceum its Hillside and his New Atheist crooners with your old favourite  "Meh, you have to have something to reduce from ".

If you want to accuse someone of reductionism, then yes you do.

Obviously.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19945 on: July 12, 2017, 04:13:52 PM »

Dennett Blackmore you Torridon Tom Cobley and all all sing the same mood music to the tune of discount to make things fit.


Dr. Susan Blackmore? If so, her final position may be similar to that of Dennett, but her journey there couldn't be more different. It was her earlier belief system that 'didn't fit'.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 04:17:03 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19946 on: July 12, 2017, 04:15:06 PM »
Ritchie Blackmore?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19947 on: July 12, 2017, 04:15:42 PM »
Gordon,

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You seem to have redefined 'truth' to suit yourself.

Yes, he does seem awful keen on saying "the truth" when what he actually means is " a personal superstition I happen to think is true".

Odd.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19948 on: July 12, 2017, 04:18:36 PM »
Ritchie Blackmore?

Cool, man.

(Sorry, Underpants is not very good at blinging)

Oops - I was thinking of Blackwood
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 04:24:15 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19949 on: July 12, 2017, 04:22:39 PM »
AB,

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The question I asked was how can any form of freedom exist in a world entirely driven by deterministic rules of physical cause and effect.   This answer seems to point to some form of restricted freedom and does not really answer the question.

Of course it answers the question. That someone feels free and acts accordingly does not require the logical incoherence of, “is also free from the effects of cause and effect”.

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So do you believe any form of freedom exists?

And if so, how does it work.

Of course – and it works in the way that’s been explained to you many times. That doesn’t though require the logical collapse of “there’s a little man at the controls who’s neither deterministic nor random because it’s magic innit, only I haven’t quite got all the details of that worked out yet, is that the time already, must run” etc.
"Don't make me come down there."

God