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[Alan Burns]

Quote from: Alan Burns on Today at 03:44:32 PM

    Just pointing out the truth that we all have freedom to choose

You seem to have redefined 'truth' to suit yourself.

Not according to the online dictionary definition of freedom.
To remind you -

noun:
 freedom;

    1.
    the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants.
    "we do have some freedom of choice"


So no mention of illusion or "it is just the way it seems"

[Shaker]

You seem to have redefined 'truth' to suit yourself.

Not according to the online dictionary definition of freedom.
To remind you -

noun:
 freedom;

    1.
    the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants.
    "we do have some freedom of choice"


So no mention of illusion or "it is just the way it seems"

Presumably because dictionaries are not usually expected to be on board with bang-up-to-date neuroscience, perchance?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Of course it answers the question. That someone feels free and acts accordingly does not require the logical incoherence of, “is also free from the effects of cause and effect”.

I have never claimed that our ability to choose is free from cause and effect.  It is certainly influenced by the past events, but not dictated by them.  Our freedom allows us to have conscious choice over what is deemed feasible by past events.

Of course – and it works in the way that’s been explained to you many times.

No one has explained how any form of freedom can exist within an environment of physically defined chains of cause and effect events.

[Rhiannon]

I have never claimed that our ability to choose is free from cause and effect.  It is certainly influenced by the past events, but not dictated by them.  Our freedom allows us to have conscious choice over what is deemed feasible by past events. No one has explained how any form of freedom can exist within an environment of physically defined chains of cause and effect events.

How do you make your choices?

[Alan Burns]

How do you make your choices?

By making a conscious decision to choose what I want to do. 
It may be influenced by past events, but not dictated by them.
So it is not just an inevitable reaction.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have never claimed that our ability to choose is free from cause and effect.  It is certainly influenced by the past events, but not dictated by them.  Our freedom allows us to have conscious choice over what is deemed feasible by past events.

Then you’re condemned to keep crashing into the dead end of logical incoherence. Only if you can find a way out of the deterministic vs random binary choice will you have a way out of that, and claiming a little man at the controls who’s magic doesn’t come even close.

No one has explained how any form of freedom can exist within an environment of physically defined chains of cause and effect events.

Of course they have. A “form of freedom” is assuming that we have free will and acting accordingly, when in fact such a thing cannot be without a fundamental re-drawing of the rules of logic. 

[Nearly Sane]

By making a conscious decision to choose what I want to do. 
It may be influenced by past events, but not dictated by them.
So it is not just an inevitable reaction.

Alan, do why do you want to do that? Note this issue has been pointed out to thousands of tines now. But you continually ignore it! Is it that you are lying?

[Enki]

Presumably because dictionaries are not usually expected to be on board with bang-up-to-date neuroscience, perchance?

And perhaps also that AB's dictionary definition is dealing with the idea of controls on personal freedom such as a totalitarian state trying to control our powers to act, speak etc. without actually dealing with the important idea of whether what one 'wants' is a matter of determinism or free will.

[ippy]

By making a conscious decision to choose what I want to do. 
It may be influenced by past events, but not dictated by them.
So it is not just an inevitable reaction.

I was wondering what your soul would be thinking while all of this was going on Alan?

Have you explained all of this to your soul as well? Is it necessary?

Exactly how do you inform your soul? Now that would be interesting, assuming it would be necessary?
 
ippy

[ekim]

By making a conscious decision to choose what I want to do. 
It may be influenced by past events, but not dictated by them.
So it is not just an inevitable reaction.

Doesn't this mean that you are not free from your wants?  As a Christian, shouldn't you be surrendered to what your God wants?  In both cases, your freedom is limited by either self determined wants or God determined wants.  Your choice appears to be to endeavour to be free from 'self' considerations so that what God determines, prevails, as illustrated by Jesus' prayer before his death sentence.

[Rhiannon]

By making a conscious decision to choose what I want to do. 
It may be influenced by past events, but not dictated by them.
So it is not just an inevitable reaction.

And how do you decide what you want to do?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Then you’re condemned to keep crashing into the dead end of logical incoherence. Only if you can find a way out of the deterministic vs random binary choice will you have a way out of that, and claiming a little man at the controls who’s magic doesn’t come even close.

As I have said, the only way to overcome the uncontrollable dictates of physical cause and effect is to induce an event which is defined from the non physical - ie the spiritual will of the conscious human soul.  Nothing at all to do with random.

Of course they have. A “form of freedom” is assuming that we have free will and acting accordingly, when in fact such a thing cannot be without a fundamental re-drawing of the rules of logic.

An illusion of free will is not a form of freedom.  It is an illusion of freedom.

[torridon]

What is your definition of novelty?
No matter how rare absolute novelty is it should not be discounted to the subsequent reductionist mood music of 'now we have discounted that we now have the complete picture".

I know the brain is in a constant state of update, I pointed it out.

You need to explain how your deterministic model covers novelty.

It might be best if you describe a novel situation that you see is a problem for the deterministic model

[Alan Burns]

And how do you decide what you want to do?

The decision is triggered by the conscious will of my human soul interacting with my physical brain.  Without this my conscious awareness just becomes a spectator over the fully automated reactions occurring in my brain.

[Rhiannon]

The decision is triggered by the conscious will of my human soul interacting with my physical brain.  Without this my conscious awareness just becomes a spectator over the fully automated reactions occurring in my brain.

No, forget the pseudoscience.

How do you choose consciously what it is that you want? What factors do you consider?

[Shaker]

No, forget the pseudoscience.

Generous.

[Alan Burns]

No, forget the pseudoscience.

How do you choose consciously what it is that you want? What factors do you consider?

It all depends how much or how little free thought I choose to devote to the decision.  It is all down to my conscious ability to drive my own thought processes.

[Rhiannon]

It all depends how much or how little free thought I choose to devote to the decision.  It is all down to my conscious ability to drive my own thought processes.

Ok. Once more.

What factors do you take into account when making choices?

[torridon]

The question I asked was how can any form of freedom exist in a world entirely driven by deterministic rules of physical cause and effect.   This answer seems to point to some form of restricted freedom and does not really answer the question.

So do you believe any form of freedom exists?
And if so, how does it work.

I look at my potato plants and I am glad that I have more degrees of freedom than them, rooted to the ground, unable to move around. I am glad that I have more degrees of freedom than a reindeer; all it does is graze on tundra all day long just to get enough calories to sustain it whereas I have access to all manner of foody delights. I am glad that I have more degrees of freedom than an orangutan - it might be pretty good at swinging in trees and improvising hammocks, but they can't read Tolstoy or debate on messageboards or start an insurrection like I can. I think what we humans have is the most wonderful thing, we have the most apparent freedom imaginable within a deterministic context, any other scenario would be either worse than what we have or it would be untenable.  In a non-deterministic universe none of these things would exist; determinism allows for predictability, it allows for meaning.  Total and utter freedom would be meaningless, it would be incomprehensible, it would be unnavigable.  What we have is far better, certain degrees of apparent freedom within an overarching context of predictability within which those degrees of freedom are meaningful and valuable and appreciated.

[wigginhall]

Blimey, torri, are you on a roll, or are you on a roll?

[Rhiannon]

Seconded. Great post, Torridon. 

[wigginhall]

Remember also, God created the uncontrollable physical forces of nature, the sly dog.   He was having a laaf. 

[Nearly Sane]

Bit of cyncism here, torridon. If, as seems likely we see the last of the orangutans, was Tolstoy worth it?

[Rhiannon]

Remember also, God created the uncontrollable physical forces of nature, the sly dog.   He was having a laaf.

Yeah but some of them are huge fun.

[Maeght]

No, forget the pseudoscience.

How do you choose consciously what it is that you want? What factors do you consider?

This is what I keep asking but eiither Alan doesn't understand what he's being asked or he doesn't have an answr he likes so is avoiding answering??