Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3878410 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19975 on: July 12, 2017, 06:41:22 PM »
I look at my potato plants and I am glad that I have more degrees of freedom than them, rooted to the ground, unable to move around. I am glad that I have more degrees of freedom than a reindeer; all it does is graze on tundra all day long just to get enough calories to sustain it whereas I have access to all manner of foody delights. I am glad that I have more degrees of freedom than an orangutan - it might be pretty good at swinging in trees and improvising hammocks, but they can't read Tolstoy or debate on messageboards or start an insurrection like I can. I think what we humans have is the most wonderful thing, we have the most apparent freedom imaginable within a deterministic context, any other scenario would be either worse than what we have or it would be untenable.  In a non-deterministic universe none of these things would exist; determinism allows for predictability, it allows for meaning.  Total and utter freedom would be meaningless, it would be incomprehensible, it would be unnavigable.  What we have is far better, certain degrees of apparent freedom within an overarching context of predictability within which those degrees of freedom are meaningful and valuable and appreciated.
First, I have never indicated the existence of total freedom.  Just the ability to consciously choose between two or more feasible options.  And I have never indicated that anything is non deterministic.  I have just introduced the concept of spiritually determined events driven by conscious will of the human soul.

The degrees of freedom you illustrate are surely just the result of physically deterministic reactions to events within the plants and animals.  Where is there any freedom in this?  And you also attribute all human behaviour to physically deterministic reactions to events.  So this does not illustrate degrees of freedom - just reaction.  If any form of freedom exists, how can it work in a physically deterministic environment?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 06:49:49 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19976 on: July 12, 2017, 06:41:38 PM »
This is what I keep asking but eiither Alan doesn't understand what he's being asked or he doesn't have an answr he likes so is avoiding answering??

Yes, I'd noticed that, which is partly why I have kept asking too.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19977 on: July 12, 2017, 06:45:38 PM »
Yes, I'd noticed that, which is partly why I have kept asking too.
But you have not accepted my answer that it is ultimately down to the conscious will of the human soul, which has the power to override any automated logical choice.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19978 on: July 12, 2017, 06:46:25 PM »
But you have not accepted my answer that it is ultimately down to the conscious will of the human soul, which has the power to override any automated logical choice.
Your "answer" is a bald assertion supported by nothing at all.

That's why it's not accepted.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19979 on: July 12, 2017, 06:47:50 PM »
But you have not accepted my answer that it is ultimately down to the conscious will of the human soul, which has the power to override any automated logical choice.

I haven't accepted your answer simply because it is unacceptable.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19980 on: July 12, 2017, 06:50:41 PM »
But you have not accepted my answer that it is ultimately down to the conscious will of the human soul, which has the power to override any automated logical choice.

You didn't answer my question at all. Either you don't understand what I'm asking or you are evading.


wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19981 on: July 12, 2017, 07:43:35 PM »
You can see the difference between the neuroscience approach to decisions, and AB's.   Neuroscience has made some important discoveries - for example, Damasio's discovery that people with certain kinds of brain damage find decisions very difficult, (partly because their emotions are inactive).   OK, I'm sure that this is leading to further research.

Now, turn to AB's points about the 'conscious will of the human soul'.   Where is the equivalent research on this?   Where is the detail about it? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wup_K2WN0I
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19982 on: July 12, 2017, 07:43:53 PM »
You didn't answer my question at all. Either you don't understand what I'm asking or you are evading.
I can't answer it in the way you want because every choice I make will be dependent on what I consciously wish to do at the time.  I am not an automated robot which does things according to built in instincts and learnt experiences.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19983 on: July 12, 2017, 07:46:57 PM »
I am not an automated robot
Your posts say otherwise.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19984 on: July 12, 2017, 07:59:27 PM »
It might be best if you describe a novel situation that you see is a problem for the deterministic model
Certainly and let me at the same time give you a lesson in the breakdown of definition of terms.

Novel situation - a situation previously not experienced e.g. tomorrow, nuclear war, getting knifed.
Deterministic model - Our choices and responses are based on instinct and previous experience, in fact any thing in our past or inherited past. If something is determining our response then it suggests memory or knowledge or indeed preprogramming

Feel free to square the circle of how past experience handles novelty, in view of saying novelty is rare being an attempt at shuffling.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19985 on: July 12, 2017, 08:05:50 PM »
I can't answer it in the way you want because every choice I make will be dependent on what I consciously wish to do at the time.  I am not an automated robot which does things according to built in instincts and learnt experiences.

Its not that we want a particular answer, its that you keep answering a different question. What you are being asked Alan is how does your will decide what choice to make.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19986 on: July 12, 2017, 11:14:04 PM »
Its not that we want a particular answer, its that you keep answering a different question. What you are being asked Alan is how does your will decide what choice to make.
You seem to be asking how my conscious awareness works.  I do not know.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19987 on: July 12, 2017, 11:17:40 PM »
You seem to be asking how my conscious awareness works.  I do not know.
But you think you know enough to plug a 'soul' in there somewhere, like the blank bit of the blackboard in that cartoon where the guy has written: "... and then a miracle occurs."
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19988 on: July 12, 2017, 11:51:44 PM »
You seem to be asking how my conscious awareness works.  I do not know.

I'm not asking about how your consciousness works. I'm asking what factors you take into account when you make your decisions about what you want and what to do.

You say that you choose the things that you want. What is it that you take into consideration when making your choices?

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19989 on: July 13, 2017, 06:37:51 AM »
I'm not asking about how your consciousness works. I'm asking what factors you take into account when you make your decisions about what you want and what to do.

You say that you choose the things that you want. What is it that you take into consideration when making your choices?
I do hope you will keep asking the question - for another 100 pages if necessary!! :)
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19990 on: July 13, 2017, 07:46:45 AM »
Certainly and let me at the same time give you a lesson in the breakdown of definition of terms.

Novel situation - a situation previously not experienced e.g. tomorrow, nuclear war, getting knifed.
Deterministic model - Our choices and responses are based on instinct and previous experience, in fact any thing in our past or inherited past. If something is determining our response then it suggests memory or knowledge or indeed preprogramming

Feel free to square the circle of how past experience handles novelty, in view of saying novelty is rare being an attempt at shuffling.

Not sure why you think there is a problem here. Past performance is not a cast iron guide to the future, but learning systems use retained memory to help guide future decision making.  The present moment always brings with it some degree of novelty but stored memory can be used to guide responses.  Right now you are having a novel experience;  web browsers are capable of displaying 16,777,216 colours and I picked one at random for this text so in all likelihood you have never in your entire lifetime encountered this exact colour before. However it is similar to previous colours you have encountered and it does not present an insurmountable challenge to your visual system to process it

And absolutely, yes, memory retention, or preprogramming, as you put it, is key to the success of any learning system. We make decisions in response to change and we retain trace memory of the outcome, be it good or bad, and these memories form the basis of emotions that guide similar decisions next time around.  Memories, in a fundamental sense, are also intergenerational; when a baby duckling follows its mother into the water for the first time, it has never encountered wetness, or buoyancy, and yet it immediately knows what to do on hitting the water and this is because a form of memory is passed through inheritance in that the duckling's neurological pathways for processing the experience of paddling the water are already built from birth so it will seem to the duckling as if it already knew what to do with water all along.

We also often make the sloppy analogy of the brain being like a digital computer whereas it bears significant similarities to the principles of analogue computing.  A synapse is not equivalent to a digital bit, either on or off, as synapses have a gradient, or variable strength, and this allows for fuzzy comparisons and intuitive solving of differential equations - when you race to return a serve in tennis for instance you are solving the equations of motion on the run by analogue methods which are far faster than digital methods.  Nature has already solved many of the computational problems that we are now trying to replicate in machine learning systems and I don't see that a deterministic substrate is a problem to this in principle, in fact, any indeterminacy, or randomness in the workings of logic would weaken the effectiveness of learning systems.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19991 on: July 13, 2017, 08:01:28 AM »
#torridon 19,992

Well said, as always.
My settings on IE are 'ignore fonts and colours' because that makes it easier to use my software.  So of course I have to ask what colour did you use?!:)
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19992 on: July 13, 2017, 08:58:57 AM »
I'm not asking about how your consciousness works. I'm asking what factors you take into account when you make your decisions about what you want and what to do.

You say that you choose the things that you want. What is it that you take into consideration when making your choices?
I honestly do not see the point you are trying to make.  Of course I may take into consideration why I might need to do something and consider the consequences - good or bad.  But ultimately it is based on the overriding conscious will of my human soul as to when and how I process the action.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19993 on: July 13, 2017, 09:00:00 AM »
I honestly do not see the point you are trying to make.  Of course I may take into consideration why I might need to do something and consider the consequences - good or bad.  But ultimately it is based on the overriding conscious will of my human soul as to when and how I process the action.

Do you ever think you might have got it all wrong?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19994 on: July 13, 2017, 09:00:58 AM »
#torridon 19,992

Well said, as always.
My settings on IE are 'ignore fonts and colours' because that makes it easier to use my software.  So of course I have to ask what colour did you use?!:)

Morning Susan,

I deliberately avoided a common named colour to make the point about novel experience, and went for hex #e93ef2 which is close to magenta.  Chances are, none of us has ever experienced it before, but we can say what it is like, which is often good enough for decision making.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:03:01 AM by torridon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19995 on: July 13, 2017, 09:06:34 AM »
Do you ever think you might have got it all wrong?
The one thing I am absolutely certain of is God's love.  Nothing can change this.  I can't prove this to anyone but I can encourage them to take a step in faith.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19996 on: July 13, 2017, 09:09:24 AM »
The one thing I am absolutely certain of is God's love.  Nothing can change this.

On the contrary. One thing can: the complete evaporation/disappearance of belief, as has happened to countless people beforehand with beliefs every bit as strong as yours.
Quote
I can't prove this to anyone but I can encourage them to take a step in faith.
Do you think you've done this with anyone?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:11:45 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19997 on: July 13, 2017, 09:09:43 AM »
The one thing I am absolutely certain of is God's love.  Nothing can change this.  I can't prove this to anyone but I can encourage them to take a step in faith.

How can you be certain of god's 'love' when the Bible paints a very different picture of its character which is far from loving, if it exists. As I have said before when I was a believer as a kid, it never gave me any sign it existed even though it begged it to do so. How do you explain that?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19998 on: July 13, 2017, 09:14:11 AM »
How can you be certain of god's 'love' when the Bible paints a very different picture of its character which is far from loving, if it exists. As I have said before when I was a believer as a kid, it never gave me any sign it existed even though it begged it to do so. How do you explain that?
It is hard for me to see things from your point of view, Floo, but I do know of many people who have come through terrible hardships and found God. 

All I can say is please do not give up.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19999 on: July 13, 2017, 09:21:23 AM »
I honestly do not see the point you are trying to make.  Of course I may take into consideration why I might need to do something and consider the consequences - good or bad.  But ultimately it is based on the overriding conscious will of my human soul as to when and how I process the action.

I now understand why my head hurts this morning. It's because I keep banging it on my laptop.

Ok, I have no idea if this will make it clearer or make it worse, but supposing your dining table is knackered. You have choices to make - carry on using it, refurb it, buy an expensive replacement, buy something cheap as chips from Ikea, buy a Fairtrade one, buy one made from sustainable wood... How do you decide what option to go for? Which factors help you to make your decision?