Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3878017 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20050 on: July 13, 2017, 06:26:08 PM »
Is it random or based on previous events?

Or is it more complicated than that?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20051 on: July 13, 2017, 06:35:44 PM »
AB,

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I have never claimed freedom of choice to be free from cause and effect - just that it is free from inevitable cause and effect…

Doesn’t get you off the hook. Cause and effect isn’t a pick and mix you can select from to suit. Either the universe is deterministic or it isn’t. Even if you wanted to assert something as only 90% cause and effect dependent, or cause and effect dependent except on Wednesdays half-day closing, or as cause and effect dependent except on high days and holy days you’d still have the insurmountable problem that the non-cause and effect bit you’d just arbitrarily carved out would then be random.   

And another word for “random” would be “chaotic”.

How would that help you? 

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…otherwise freedom does not exist.

Only if you’re daft enough to accept your personal definition of it of “free from cause and effect”.

Why would anyone possessed of a functioning intellect do that though?

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So please consider the option of a spiritually caused choice.

Two problems there:

First, you’ve given no sensible reason to abandon the rational explanation.

Second, your alternative is just white noise. Neither you nor I have any idea what you mean by “spirituality”, any idea how it would work, any idea how someone would test the claim.

Apart from all that though…
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 06:40:44 PM by bluehillside »
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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20052 on: July 13, 2017, 06:41:42 PM »
Or is it more complicated than that?

Open to hearing your suggestion.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20053 on: July 13, 2017, 06:56:25 PM »
Open to hearing your suggestion.
It has to be more complicated than previous experience. Previous experience is not novelty. Of course you yourself think it's more complicated by giving the phrase ''Based on'' previous experience.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20054 on: July 13, 2017, 06:56:50 PM »
Maeght,

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Open to hearing your suggestion.

You could always try AB’s approach of, “I really don’t like the idea that “freedom” doesn’t mean “free from the cause and effect” so I’ll decide that there must be something outside of that, only there’s no evidence for it so I’ll just call it “soul” and use it to plug the gaps in the evidence for a naturalistic explanation and hope no-one notices that I have no evidence of any kind for such a thing, and nor do I have a means to get off the hook of the deterministic vs random problem it gives me”.

Then again, perhaps not   
"Don't make me come down there."

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20055 on: July 13, 2017, 07:00:12 PM »
Maeght,

You could always try AB’s approach of, “I really don’t like the idea that “freedom” doesn’t mean “free from the cause and effect” so I’ll decide that there must be something outside of that, only there’s no evidence for it so I’ll just call it “soul” and use it to plug the gaps in the evidence for a naturalistic explanation and hope no-one notices that I have no evidence of any kind for such a thing, and nor do I have a means to get off the hook of the deterministic vs random problem it gives me”.

Then again, perhaps not   
I'm actually pulling maeght up on the facile ''Based on previous experience''.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20056 on: July 13, 2017, 07:18:14 PM »
I'm actually pulling maeght up on the facile ''Based on previous experience''.

So how freely do you make your decisions? What factors do you take into account?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20057 on: July 13, 2017, 07:23:47 PM »
Vlad,

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I'm actually pulling maeght up on the facile ''Based on previous experience''.

I was referencing AB rather than you and why is it facile? You still seem to be stuck on the notion that to deal with novelty "experience" entails something like a SatNav with every possible scenario it might encounter pre-installed in look up menus. It requires no such thing though. Rather "experience" just means tools and methods and impressions and models we can apply to new data to interpret and model it. At a trivial level, this is obviously so - you will never have seen the same snowflake before the one that just landed on you for example, but you have enough generic information that correlates to "snowflake" to tell you immediately what it is.

A more attenuated version would be the purple tiger - again you'd have enough already to correlate to "tiger" and to "purple" to work out what it is, even though you'd never seen or even heard of such thing before.

And so it goes - we simply use the tools and memories of experience to interpret and model as novel data arrives, as it does pretty much all the time though generally not in a radical way.

       
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 07:32:04 PM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20058 on: July 13, 2017, 08:00:39 PM »
So how freely do you make your decisions? What factors do you take into account?
There is are on this thread occasional nods to novelty but then a lapse into the dogma that it is down to previous experience, or evolution or inheritance.
Where Torridon's wonderful demonstration worked was not it's link with previously experienced purple but it's demonstration of novelty but there are further questions, how much novelty could Toriddon's little ducks adapt too? Do we really see Torridon's new purple or do we substitute another?

You see Torridon's post with it's experiment has what they call scientific fertility. It promotes further thought rather than pretends that vague platitudes do. Hillside's posts IMHO seek to shut thinking down at the point which suits his argument.

Hillside of course is wrong. I find nothing like the soul , Which incidentally, Hillsides thinks I ''want.'', in scripture. I have previously said Consciousness could be a completely physical thing and so could the self be. Where I am at Odds with Hillside , Torridon etc is with the idea that these are illusions and can be discounted in the interests of reductionism and neatness and yes, maybe, materialism.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20059 on: July 13, 2017, 08:14:26 PM »
Yeah, ok, but what about you, Vlad? What factors do you take into account?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20060 on: July 13, 2017, 09:22:20 PM »
AB,

Doesn’t get you off the hook. Cause and effect isn’t a pick and mix you can select from to suit. Either the universe is deterministic or it isn’t. Even if you wanted to assert something as only 90% cause and effect dependent, or cause and effect dependent except on Wednesdays half-day closing, or as cause and effect dependent except on high days and holy days you’d still have the insurmountable problem that the non-cause and effect bit you’d just arbitrarily carved out would then be random.   

And another word for “random” would be “chaotic”.

How would that help you? 

Only if you’re daft enough to accept your personal definition of it of “free from cause and effect”.

Why would anyone possessed of a functioning intellect do that though?

Two problems there:

First, you’ve given no sensible reason to abandon the rational explanation.

Second, your alternative is just white noise. Neither you nor I have any idea what you mean by “spirituality”, any idea how it would work, any idea how someone would test the claim.

Apart from all that though…
I do not dispute that our material universe is entirely deterministic.  I have made this point several times.  What I am postulating is that for freedom to exist in this universe, the source of this freedom must me non material, otherwise there is no freedom.  So I am suggesting that there is a spiritual dimension which can interact with this material universe to facilitate freedom, but is not part of this material universe.

Such a pity that some are in denial of this amazing gift of freedom.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:49:58 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20061 on: July 13, 2017, 09:26:44 PM »
I do not dispute that our material universe is entirely deterministic.  I have made this point several times.  What I am postulating is that for freedom to exist in this universe, the source of this freedom must me non material, otherwise there is no freedom.  So I am suggesting that there is a spiritual dimension which can interact with this material universe to facilitate freedom, but is not part of this material universe.

Such a pity that some are in denial of this amazing gift.

It is more a pity, Alan, that you haven't been able to make a cogent case for your thesis.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20062 on: July 13, 2017, 09:43:16 PM »
I do not dispute that our material universe is entirely deterministic.  I have made this point several times.  What I am postulating is that for freedom to exist in this universe, the source of this freedom must me non material, otherwise there is no freedom.  So I am suggesting that there is a spiritual dimension which can interact with this material universe to facilitate freedom, but is not part of this material universe.

Such a pity that some are in denial of this amazing gift.
So from postulate and suggest to gift.

'Gift' of what or of which or of whom - postulated or suggested or otherwise?

Why do you consider the denial of this a pity?

Add these to the long list of questions you ignore and won't answer.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:46:08 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20063 on: July 13, 2017, 10:47:54 PM »
I do not dispute that our material universe is entirely deterministic.  I have made this point several times.  What I am postulating is that for freedom to exist in this universe, the source of this freedom must me non material, otherwise there is no freedom.  So I am suggesting that there is a spiritual dimension which can interact with this material universe to facilitate freedom, but is not part of this material universe.

Such a pity that some are in denial of this amazing gift.

No one is in denial Alan. Try backing up your belief with some evidence .

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20064 on: July 13, 2017, 10:58:05 PM »
It has to be more complicated than previous experience. Previous experience is not novelty. Of course you yourself think it's more complicated by giving the phrase ''Based on'' previous experience.

Of course it is more complicated than you seem to think I am saying. Regarding novelty, the brain looks to compare the stimulus it is receiving against its memory bank of previous stimuli to look for a best match. Sometimes this works sometimes not - hence optical illlusions. The brain is complex with loops of checking and rechecking going on. This still means the conclusion the brain reaches depends on previous experience.

Hope thats not too facile for you and that you don't feel the ned to pull me up on I again.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20065 on: July 14, 2017, 06:40:10 AM »
Morning Susan,

I deliberately avoided a common named colour to make the point about novel experience, and went for hex #e93ef2 which is close to magenta.  Chances are, none of us has ever experienced it before, but we can say what it is like, which is often good enough for decision making.
Thank you!
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20066 on: July 14, 2017, 06:47:05 AM »
FFS, Alan. Why is this so hard to answer?

You have an important decision to make. You have things to weigh up before doing so. What factors do you consider when making your decision? Please don't evade the question again.
Good for you, Rhiannon. I support your questions.
It is Friday and I am catching up, but I think it is unlikely that AB will have actually responded properly to your question before I get to the most up-to-date post. If not, I too ask AB the same question as you.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20067 on: July 14, 2017, 07:23:04 AM »
I do not dispute that our material universe is entirely deterministic.  I have made this point several times.  What I am postulating is that for freedom to exist in this universe, the source of this freedom must me non material, otherwise there is no freedom.  So I am suggesting that there is a spiritual dimension which can interact with this material universe to facilitate freedom, but is not part of this material universe.

Such a pity that some are in denial of this amazing gift of freedom.

My son has just finished his degree, got a good result, and I might say to him, go for it, the world is your oyster. I think this little vignette captures the real essence of our sense of freedom.  There are thousands of career options open to him from which he can choose; thousands of places where he could choose to live or go on holiday; as to choosing a nice little woman, well there are a couple of billion currently available. The breadth of choice available to humans is exhilarating, compared to, say, that available to a hedgehog or a fruit fly.  It is this knowledge of the immensity of the range of possibilities that gives us a sense of freedom; our choice range is often near infinite for most practical purposes. 

It is a great position to be in, to be able to satisfy your desires from amongst such a wide range of options.  It doesn't matter to us that the process of making of that choice might be deterministic in nature; all it means is that we are unable, in practice, to make choices that we don't want to make, and hell, why on earth would I want to choose something that I don't want anyway ? So our deterministic nature does not impinge on our happiness, and our sense of free will is never compromised.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 07:28:31 AM by torridon »

john

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20068 on: July 14, 2017, 08:06:12 AM »
AB said, "Such a pity that some are in denial of this amazing gift of freedom"

Gift, from the German meaning poison.

"Faith may be a gift in religion, but in science it is poison, for faith is no way to find truth". Jerry A Coyne writing in his book Faith vs Fact. A excellent book.
"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20069 on: July 14, 2017, 08:48:12 AM »
AB said, "Such a pity that some are in denial of this amazing gift of freedom"

Gift, from the German meaning poison.

"Faith may be a gift in religion, but in science it is poison, for faith is no way to find truth". Jerry A Coyne writing in his book Faith vs Fact. A excellent book.

Far from being a gift of freedom, it is often more like wearing a straightjacket.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20070 on: July 14, 2017, 09:59:17 AM »
Of course it is more complicated than you seem to think I am saying. Regarding novelty, the brain looks to compare the stimulus it is receiving against its memory bank of previous stimuli to look for a best match. Sometimes this works sometimes not - hence optical illlusions. The brain is complex with loops of checking and rechecking going on. This still means the conclusion the brain reaches depends on previous experience.

Hope thats not too facile for you and that you don't feel the ned to pull me up on I again.
I just feel that a process based on previous knowledge is more appropriate for skills acquisition than handling novelty.
We are still not at the point of matching with novelty.
In the simple case of purple tigers of course there is a match purple and tiger. But not all novel situations are that convenient.
Whether we like it or not we are still left with the problem which will never be answered by looking to the past and that is the 'shock of the new'. At the moment commentators on this thread have treated novelty as though it is a walk in the park when what they are really alluding to is the familiar.

I did criticise Torridon for almost explaining novely away by declaring it a rarity. Novelty cannot be a rarity but lets examine where we could have gone had he eliminated novelty......He would have been suggesting probably that the universe is comprised of basic forms which are everywhere and are just being rearranged............remember the old adage that there is nothing new under the sun.

But that also goes beyond any pat explanation that novelty is dealt with by memory and of course all this is before we get to decision making

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20071 on: July 14, 2017, 10:15:41 AM »
AB,

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I do not dispute that our material universe is entirely deterministic. I have made this point several times.

So far, so good. Keep going…

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What I am postulating is that for freedom to exist in this universe, the source of this freedom must me non material, otherwise there is no freedom.

So let’s unpack the three mistakes in that sentence:

First, you’re relying again on your idiosyncratic and incoherent definition of “freedom” of “free from any constraints, including the constraints of cause and effect”. This is wrong. The conscious “we” have all sorts of freedoms in the sense of countless options available to us, but there’s no need for the substrate of cause and effect not to apply for that to be the case.

Second, “non material” is meaningless – in the sense you’re attempting it of “not bound by cause and effect” then it must be random which, as you now know, would mean chaotic.

Third, it’s circular: “I think “freedom” means “free from cause and effect”, therefore there must be a free from cause and effect space for it to exist”. It’s also an argumentum ad consequentiam by the way.   
 
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So I am suggesting that there is a spiritual dimension which can interact with this material universe to facilitate freedom, but is not part of this material universe.

But that “suggestion” has collapsed because its premises have failed – see above.

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Such a pity that some are in denial of this amazing gift of freedom.

And now you’ve carefully iced your fallacy cake with some reification just to finish the job. You can’t be “in denial” of something that hasn't been demonstrated to exist, and the “amazing gift” part is a huge leap to assuming a gift giver.

0/10 See me in my study
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:20:36 AM by bluehillside »
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20072 on: July 14, 2017, 10:40:52 AM »


Second, “non material” is meaningless – in the sense you’re attempting it of “not bound by cause and effect” then it must be random which, as you now know, would mean chaotic.

.   
It's only meaningless in the context of materialism.

Please link not bound by cause and effect to random. Random is NOT the same as chaotic.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20073 on: July 14, 2017, 10:43:15 AM »
Vlad,

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I just feel that a process based on previous knowledge is more appropriate for skills acquisition than handling novelty.

No really. Actually one way of thinking of consciousness is as a novelty processing machine – it’s because it has the characteristics of problem solving, pattern finding etc that it can navigate the new, which is a huge asset in evolutionary terms and so has become embedded over time. 

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We are still not at the point of matching with novelty.

Yes we are. See above.

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In the simple case of purple tigers of course there is a match purple and tiger. But not all novel situations are that convenient.

No they’re not, but the principle is the same regardless of how novel the situation. That’s why I started with a novel snowflake, then the purple tiger. The next one if you like could be a turquoise oojamaflip – a previously undiscovered species we'd then try to classify (does it lay eggs or give birth to live young? etc) to figure out its taxonomy. And if it didn’t fit within an existing species, genus, family, order, class, phylum etc then we'd describe a new one.   

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Whether we like it or not we are still left with the problem which will never be answered by looking to the past and that is the 'shock of the new'. At the moment commentators on this thread have treated novelty as though it is a walk in the park when what they are really alluding to is the familiar.

Nope. The “shock of the new” is amenable to the tools and methods of experience – from new species to beetle to quasars, it doesn’t matter much. If ever something was discovered that was so outside our ability to process it then all we’d have is a “don’t know” because that’s the point at which our intellects had run out. 

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I did criticise Torridon for almost explaining novely away by declaring it a rarity. Novelty cannot be a rarity but lets examine where we could have gone had he eliminated novelty......He would have been suggesting probably that the universe is comprised of basic forms which are everywhere and are just being rearranged............remember the old adage that there is nothing new under the sun.

That’s pretty much was the evidence tells us, yes: relatively few basic components in endlessly varied arrangements. Very often we can define and explain those arrangements, and sometimes we can’t. The latter group is pretty much the reason people still do science - to process the novel. 

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But that also goes beyond any pat explanation that novelty is dealt with by memory and of course all this is before we get to decision making

That’s a straw man – it’s not “memory” in the sense that a SatNav has a memory of street plans, it’s experience that entails tools and methods the deal precisely with the novel.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20074 on: July 14, 2017, 10:46:35 AM »
Vlad,

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It's only meaningless in the context of materialism.

If you think "definition" is a materialistic concept, then yes it is. The problem that gives you though is finding some other means to free it from white noise. 

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Please link not bound by cause and effect to random. Random is NOT the same as chaotic.

Yes it is. What else could it be?
"Don't make me come down there."

God