Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

In a physically deterministic universe, by definition everything must be entirely determined by previous physical events.  In this scenario there can be no form of freedom - just unavoidable consequences.

Of course there can be "forms" of freedom. What there can't be though is "freedom" according to your personal definition of , "free from cause and effect".

As you've had this explained many times now and you just ignore the explanation, I think it's fair to ask you to stop lying.
 

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Of course there can be "forms" of freedom. What there can't be though is "freedom" according to your personal definition of , "free from cause and effect".

As you've had this explained many times now and you just ignore the explanation, I think it's fair to ask you to stop lying.

I have never claimed that our freedom is free from cause and effect.  Just to remind you, I said that our conscious choices are determined by the spiritual will of the human soul, not from the unavoidable consequences of previous physical events.

[Gordon]

I have never claimed that our freedom is free from cause and effect.  Just to remind you, I said that our conscious choices are determined by the spiritual will of the human soul, not from the unavoidable consequences of previous physical events.

'Human soul' sounds like a humungous oxymoron to me.

[torridon]

I have never claimed that our freedom is free from cause and effect.  Just to remind you, I said that our conscious choices are determined by the spiritual will of the human soul, not from the unavoidable consequences of previous physical events.

Make your mind up, sentence 2 contradicts sentence 1.

[ippy]

I have never claimed that our freedom is free from cause and effect.  Just to remind you, I said that our conscious choices are determined by the spiritual will of the human soul, not from the unavoidable consequences of previous physical events.

Potty.

[Maeght]

I have never claimed that our freedom is free from cause and effect.  Just to remind you, I said that our conscious choices are determined by the spiritual will of the human soul, not from the unavoidable consequences of previous physical events.

And what determines what the will of the human soul is if it is not previous events? I've asked this many times before and you've never explained this.

[torridon]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that He made Himself known to us through Jesus, who then suffered torture and death in order to deliver us from evil.  I know this is not the way you would expect God to make His love known - but you are not God.

I come that you may have life, and have it in abundance.  John 10:10

Ancient stories from antiquity that are beyond any significant corroboration hardly count as evidence in a modern sense, do they ? If you are going to lower your bar that much then there is no reason to reject the testimony of Mohammed and others who made similar claims of divine knowledge.  Are we supposed to just swallow the Christian canon of mythology with murmur, but suddenly engage critical reasoning when it comes to the claims of the other faiths ?

[torridon]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that He made Himself known to us through Jesus, who then suffered torture and death in order to deliver us from evil.  I know this is not the way you would expect God to make His love known - but you are not God.

I come that you may have life, and have it in abundance.  John 10:10

and apart from the above post, this claim of yours makes no sense. 

If we need to be delivered from evil, then why did god create evil in the first place.  I think I've asked you already innumerable time why God created the Devil but as yet you have not squared that circle.  You claim to think deeply on such matters, so step up to the mark and share.

If there is life to be had in abundance, then are we supposed to accept there is an entry ticket to this life, an entry ticket that is divisive and discriminating, allowing in only those prepared to quiet their critical reasoning skills and also reject any who do not recognise the ticket as authentic ?  What kind of a god would set up such a bizarre scheme ?

[floo]

People who believe god was responsible for all creation have to accept that it created human nature, which includes evil, so the buck stops with god.

[Alan Burns]

And what determines what the will of the human soul is if it is not previous events? I've asked this many times before and you've never explained this.

The conscious awareness of the human soul is not a physical entity.  It perceives and interacts with the physical, but it is not in itself bound by physical laws of cause and effect.  So the soul is certainly influenced by the information it perceives, but it's resulting reaction is not just an inevitable consequence.  Within our conscious awareness, we have the freedom to invoke physical events in the brain to facilitate the will of the human soul.

[Alan Burns]

Ancient stories from antiquity that are beyond any significant corroboration hardly count as evidence in a modern sense, do they ? If you are going to lower your bar that much then there is no reason to reject the testimony of Mohammed and others who made similar claims of divine knowledge.  Are we supposed to just swallow the Christian canon of mythology with murmur, but suddenly engage critical reasoning when it comes to the claims of the other faiths ?

When looking at other faiths, it is easy for me to discern the man made attempts to discover God from the one religion in which God makes Himself known to an often reluctant chosen race.

[Nearly Sane]

The conscious awareness of the human soul is not a physical entity.  It perceives and interacts with the physical, but it is not in itself bound by physical laws of cause and effect.  So the soul is certainly influenced by the information it perceives, but it's resulting reaction is not just an inevitable consequence.  Within our conscious awareness, we have the freedom to invoke physical events in the brain to facilitate the will of the human soul.

Alan, yet against putting in physical or material here isn't even attempting to answer the question. How does your soul want anything other than what is caused in some way?

[Gordon]

The conscious awareness of the human soul is not a physical entity.  It perceives and interacts with the physical, but it is not in itself bound by physical laws of cause and effect.  So the soul is certainly influenced by the information it perceives, but it's resulting reaction is not just an inevitable consequence.  Within our conscious awareness, we have the freedom to invoke physical events in the brain to facilitate the will of the human soul.

So, Alan, what determines 'the will of the human soul'?

[Nearly Sane]

When looking at other faiths, it is easy for me to discern the man made attempts to discover God from the one religion in which God makes Himself known to an often reluctant chosen race.

why would a god that loves everyone chose a race?

[Alan Burns]

and apart from the above post, this claim of yours makes no sense. 

If we need to be delivered from evil, then why did god create evil in the first place.  I think I've asked you already innumerable time why God created the Devil but as yet you have not squared that circle.  You claim to think deeply on such matters, so step up to the mark and share.

If there is life to be had in abundance, then are we supposed to accept there is an entry ticket to this life, an entry ticket that is divisive and discriminating, allowing in only those prepared to quiet their critical reasoning skills and also reject any who do not recognise the ticket as authentic ?  What kind of a god would set up such a bizarre scheme ?

God did not create evil.
By creating entities of awareness with the gift of free will, those entities had the freedom to accept or reject their creator.

And critical reasoning skills are no barrier to faith, as there are many highly intelligent critical thinkers who have accepted Jesus into their lives.  But having said that, there will always be a mystery surrounding the spiritual aspects of our faith - a mystery which will become clear when we enter our heavenly existence.

[floo]

God did not create evil.
By creating entities of awareness with the gift of free will, those entities had the freedom to accept or reject their creator.

And critical reasoning skills are no barrier to faith, as there are many highly intelligent critical thinkers who have accepted Jesus into their lives.  But having said that, there will always be a mystery surrounding the spiritual aspects of our faith - a mystery which will become clear when we enter our heavenly existence.

Of course god created evil if he was responsible for creating human nature, you can't get out of that one!

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have never claimed that our freedom is free from cause and effect.  Just to remind you, I said that our conscious choices are determined by the spiritual will of the human soul, not from the unavoidable consequences of previous physical events.

But that just transfers the problem to your conjecture “soul”.

Here’s how this works. First you decide (albeit wrongly) that freedom can’t be “real” or “true” if it’s bounded by the logic of cause and effect. You don’t like that – indeed you really don’t like that. So what you do next is to park the cause and effect bit in our material selves, and then conjure up an immaterial little man at the controls you call “soul” that’s somehow outside the cause and effect paradigm.

But the problem that give you (apart that is from there being no evidence whatever for it) is that to be not bound by cause and effect this soul of your would have to function randomly – ie, chaotically. And you way out of that incoherence? Easy – just call it “spiritual” (which sounds a bit posher than “it’s magic”, which is actually what you’re saying), use pejorative language about the arguments that undo you ("shallow", "limited" etc), and then avoid any and all questions about how this "soul" could ever work.

There you go – job done. It’s all bonkers and deeply intellectually dishonest to boot, but it has meaning for you and moreover it seems to be important to you to have your personal superstition validated by insisting that other people agree with it. But the problem with that is that sometimes your audience will be possessed of functioning intellects, which is why you always crash and burn here in the attempt.   

[Alan Burns]

So, Alan, what determines 'the will of the human soul'?

You do.

[Nearly Sane]

You do.

and what determines what you want?

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

and what determines what you want?

The soul.

And how does this "soul" determine what it wants?

Er, is that the time already?

[Shaker]

God did not create evil.

Why does the Book of Isaiah have it say that it did?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

But that just transfers the problem to your conjecture “soul”.

Here’s how this works. First you decide (albeit wrongly) that freedom can’t be “real” or “true” if it’s bounded by the logic of cause and effect. You don’t like that – indeed you really don’t like that. So what you do next is to park the cause and effect bit in our material selves, and then conjure up an immaterial little man at the controls you call “soul” that’s somehow outside the cause and effect paradigm.

But the problem that give you (apart that is from there being no evidence whatever for it) is that to be not bound by cause and effect this soul of your would have to function randomly – ie, chaotically. And you way out of that incoherence? Easy – just call it “spiritual” (which sounds a bit posher than “it’s magic”, which is actually what you’re saying), use pejorative language about the arguments that undo you ("shallow", "limited" etc), and then avoid any and all questions about how this "soul" could ever work.

There you go – job done. It’s all bonkers and deeply intellectually dishonest to boot, but it has meaning for you and moreover it seems to be important to you to have your personal superstition validated by insisting that other people agree with it. But the problem with that is that sometimes your audience will be possessed of functioning intellects, which is why you always crash and burn here in the attempt.   

Can you not see the irony in your post?
You accuse me of wilfully conjuring up a scenario to explain a way out of the "cause and effect" limitations of our human actions, but in this wilful conjuring, am I not displaying evidence of my freedom to make conscious choices?  Can you define the true source of my wilful conjuring?

[Alan Burns]

and what determines what you want?

The buck stops with you.

[Maeght]

The conscious awareness of the human soul is not a physical entity.  It perceives and interacts with the physical, but it is not in itself bound by physical laws of cause and effect.  So the soul is certainly influenced by the information it perceives, but it's resulting reaction is not just an inevitable consequence.  Within our conscious awareness, we have the freedom to invoke physical events in the brain to facilitate the will of the human soul.

Influenced by but not determined by? On what basis does the soul decide to ignore the influence?

[torridon]

God did not create evil.
By creating entities of awareness with the gift of free will, those entities had the freedom to accept or reject their creator.

And critical reasoning skills are no barrier to faith, as there are many highly intelligent critical thinkers who have accepted Jesus into their lives.  But having said that, there will always be a mystery surrounding the spiritual aspects of our faith - a mystery which will become clear when we enter our heavenly existence.

I didn't ask why god created free will, I asked why god created the Devil. Try and answer without recourse to your trademark evasiveness.