Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Influenced by but not determined by? On what basis does the soul decide to ignore the influence?

I have the freedom to reply or ignore your post.  It is a conscious choice, not a pre determined action.  Precisely how the soul works and interacts with our physical brain is a mystery - I just know that it does it.

[Nearly Sane]

The buck stops with you.

You aren't getting this are you? How is a choice made? Again Alan, I urfer you to actually read what people ate posted as it feels as if we have to start from scratch every time with you. Your answer isn't addressing how a choice can be in any sense free. If it is 'you' making that and you have already accepted that much of you is determined by previous events whether physical or 'spitirtual' (note spiritual is still a word you have provided no coherent definition for), then what is the freedom? Again you have been asked this multiple times, but not only have you not provided an answer, it's as if you have no understanding of the problem.

[Alan Burns]

I didn't ask why god created free will, I asked why god created the Devil. Try and answer without recourse to your trademark evasiveness.

According to scripture, the Devil was created as the angel, Lucifer, who chose to reject God and became evil.  So in creating this entity of free will, the concept of accepting or rejecting God came into being.  If there was no free will, God would just have an entourage of puppets.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Can you not see the irony in your post?

There is none, and nor will there be until you finally figure out a way to explain “soul” with something other than “it's spiritual/magic”.
 

You accuse me of wilfully conjuring up a scenario to explain a way out of the "cause and effect" limitations of our human actions…

Yes, and rightly so.

… but in this wilful conjuring, am I not displaying evidence of my freedom to make conscious choices?

Yes, but your “freedom” does not entail the incoherence of freedom from cause and effect. It’s inextricably bounded by it, however much you happen not to like that reality. 

Can you define the true source of my wilful conjuring?

Yes – your brain. Or if you prefer, your self-aware consciousness that all the available evidence tells us is an emergent property of the unfathomably complex interactions of the neurons and synapses that constitute your brain.

Just making up an answer that actually explains nothing because you don’t like or understand that is intellectually dishonest. 

[Nearly Sane]

I have the freedom to reply or ignore your post.  It is a conscious choice, not a pre determined action.  Precisely how the soul works and interacts with our physical brain is a mystery - I just know that it does it.

the nature of the interaction isn't what you are being asked about. Again you are getting yourself confused here. The question is about on what basis could a decision be made by anything in anyway that is not caused by previous events on whatever plane. Again if it isn't determined, it is either random or part determined part random. Not only have you been unable to provide an explanation of what you mean,you haven't even shown any understanding of the problem.

[Gordon]

If there was no free will, God would just have an entourage of puppets.

Said the puppet.

[Shaker]

I have the freedom to reply or ignore your post.

With ignoring them preponderating ... much as you're ignoring my question, if as you claim God didn't create evil, why does the Bible have it say the exact opposite?

[Gordon]

You do.

Therefore this soul thing operates as determined by my wants, so it is subject to prior conditions?

The only problem now where my wants come from. 

[floo]

With each post it appears AB is digging himself into an even deeper hole.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

There is none, and nor will there be until you finally figure out a way to explain “soul” with something other than “it's spiritual/magic”.
 
Yes, and rightly so.

Yes, but your “freedom” does not entail the incoherence of freedom from cause and effect. It’s inextricably bounded by it, however much you happen not to like that reality. 

Yes – your brain. Or if you prefer, your self-aware consciousness that all the available evidence tells us is an emergent property of the unfathomably complex interactions of the neurons and synapses that constitute your brain.

Just making up an answer that actually explains nothing because you don’t like or understand that is intellectually dishonest.

Just pause for a minute and think about what it is that you are accusing of dishonesty.
If I am just the emergent property of a complex physical network of activity, whatever actions come from me will be entirely determined by the forces of nature.  Are you accusing nature of being dishonest?

[Alan Burns]

With ignoring them preponderating ... much as you're ignoring my question, if as you claim God didn't create evil, why does the Bible have it say the exact opposite?

I can't recall where Isaiah claims that God created evil - can you quote the verse?

[Shaker]

I can't recall where Isaiah claims that God created evil - can you quote the verse?

Isaiah 45:7:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Let the squirming begin.

[Walter]

Just pause for a minute and think about what it is that you are accusing of dishonesty.
If I am just the emergent property of a complex physical network of activity, whatever actions come from me will be entirely determined by the forces of nature.  Are you accusing nature of being dishonest?

nature doesn't care either way ,AB. But keep posting, you provide hours of amusement, thank you 

[torridon]

According to scripture, the Devil was created as the angel, Lucifer, who chose to reject God and became evil.  So in creating this entity of free will, the concept of accepting or rejecting God came into being.  If there was no free will, God would just have an entourage of puppets.

So if god unwittingly created evil in the form of Lucifer, why does he continue to tolerate him ?

[Alan Burns]

Isaiah 45:7:
Let the squirming begin.

I do not profess to be a scriptural scholar so can I present a cut and paste job:
Question: "Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?"

Answer: Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

[Shaker]

Right, so according to a different translation the passage therefore reads:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create adversity/affliction/calamity/distress/misery/woe/disaster: I the LORD do all these things.

That's an improvement, is it, in your mind?

[Alan Burns]

So if god unwittingly created evil in the form of Lucifer, why does he continue to tolerate him ?

I do not know the answer to this - I just know that God gives us the strength and power to resist the Devil's temptations if we put our faith in Him.

[Shaker]

I do not know the answer to this - I just know that God gives us the strength and power to resist the Devil's temptations if we put our faith in Him.

No, you do not.

Doubtless you believe this sort of stuff and much else nonsense besides, but it's a belief, not an item of knowledge.

[SusanDoris]

With each post it appears AB is digging himself into an even deeper hole.

He'll be reaching Australia soon!
I just don't know how he can bear to keep on coming out with   the stuff he does.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

I do not profess to be a scriptural scholar so can I present a cut and past job:
Question: "Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?"

Answer: Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

So even with a good bit of squirming the best this could refer to is:

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, [“adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.”]: I the LORD do all these things.”
And you are happy to be in relationship with such a God?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Right, so according to a different translation the passage therefore reads:

That's an improvement, is it, in your mind?

Beat me too it.

[SusanDoris]

nature doesn't care either way ,AB. But keep posting, you provide hours of amusement, thank you 

I don't know about AB's post being amusing - they make me wince! However, the interest is in reading the clear, sensible arguments presented by others.

[Alan Burns]

So even with a good bit of squirming the best this could refer to is:

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, [“adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.”]: I the LORD do all these things.”
And you are happy to be in relationship with such a God?

It is obvious that our earthly life will not entirely be a bed of roses.  Every human being will have to endure some form of suffering, and it is how we cope with it and help others through it which can be of benefit to us.  If we did not know or experience hardships we would not be the complete beings which God intended.  And remember we are not in heaven yet.

[Shaker]

It is obvious that our earthly life will not entirely be a bed of roses.  Every human being will have to endure some form of suffering, and it is how we cope with it and help others through it which can be of benefit to us.  If we did not know or experience hardships we would not be the complete beings which God intended.  And remember we are not in heaven yet.

And yet this suffering of which you prate is, according to your book, explicitly and deliberately created by your god.

Do you consider human beings who create suffering/hardship to be just, admirable and praiseworthy?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Precisely how the soul works and interacts with our physical brain is a mystery - I just know happen to believe that it does it.

Corrected it for you.

Just pause for a minute and think about what it is that you are accusing of dishonesty.
If I am just the emergent property of a complex physical network of activity, whatever actions come from me will be entirely determined by the forces of nature.  Are you accusing nature of being dishonest?

Again, that “just” is misplaced and you are in effect a function of “the forces of nature” as you put it. The person I’m accusing of dishonesty is the person who’s being dishonest, albeit that he’s operating within a deterministic paradigm.

Look, you’ve posted hundred if not thousands of replies here all of which so far as I can tell just ignore the problems with your claims, dismiss with pejorative language the reasoning that falsifies your attempts at argument, and repeat endlessly the mantra that happens to make sense to you nonetheless.

And yet at the same time you tell us that you don’t have the time to explain in detail the arguments you think you have that aren’t hopeless.

Doesn’t wash does it.

So why not (finally) put up or shut up?

Provide some kind of coherent definition for “soul”. Construct an argument for it that isn’t obviously false. Identify some evidence that would demonstrate it as a fact.

Do these things and you might have something worth listening to. Until then though, you’ll remain trapped in the white noise of “not even wrong”.

It’s your choice.