Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3864117 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20850 on: August 03, 2017, 05:11:04 PM »
Genetic mutations are the driving force - without them there would be no natural selection.  The main point I have tried to make is that truly beneficial mutations will be extremely rare if all mutations are randomly generated.  Yet the TOE seems to presume that there will always be sufficient beneficial mutations to drive the natural selection process to build up highly complex organs using thousands of incremental steps, each of which has to have substantial survival benefit in its own right.  You claim the end product is just pure chance, because the TOE has no underlying aims or goals apart from survival.  But can you not see divine purpose in the awesome attributes you have acquired?

Since your god chose genetics to major in, your god chose Charlie Gard to die of a genetic disease. How does it feel to worship a sadistic murderer?

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20851 on: August 03, 2017, 05:17:02 PM »
Does this mean that blindness is divinely inspired in cave fish, or flightlessness in some birds?   Or for that matter, E. Coli's resistance to antibiotics?  Truly, God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.
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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20852 on: August 03, 2017, 05:18:19 PM »
Genetic mutations are the driving force - without them there would be no natural selection.  The main point I have tried to make is that truly beneficial mutations will be extremely rare if all mutations are randomly generated.  Yet the TOE seems to presume that there will always be sufficient beneficial mutations to drive the natural selection process to build up highly complex organs using thousands of incremental steps, each of which has to have substantial survival benefit in its own right.  You claim the end product is just pure chance, because the TOE has no underlying aims or goals apart from survival.  But can you not see divine purpose in the awesome attributes you have acquired?

Alan, why do you think you know better than evolutionary biologists?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20853 on: August 03, 2017, 05:21:10 PM »
Does this mean that blindness is divinely inspired in cave fish, or flightlessness in some birds?   Or for that matter, E. Coli's resistance to antibiotics?  Truly, God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.

Doesn't it just.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20854 on: August 03, 2017, 05:29:13 PM »
AB wrote:

Quote
You claim the end product is just pure chance, because the TOE has no underlying aims or goals apart from survival.

How can it be pure chance?  When I see a wasp spider, which looks very like a wasp, (mimicry), are you saying that this developed without any connection with the environment?
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20855 on: August 03, 2017, 06:22:37 PM »
Alan, why do you think you know better than evolutionary biologists?
There are some biologists and other highly qualified scientist who have the courage to challenge the assumptions used in postulating the capabilities of unguided evolution to generate highly complex organs.  And it is apparent that scientists who do stick their head above the parapet to voice such opinions often get ridiculed by their peers.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20856 on: August 03, 2017, 06:23:46 PM »
There are some biologists and other highly qualified scientist who have the courage to challenge the assumptions used in postulating the capabilities of unguided evolution to generate highly complex organs.  And it is apparent that scientists who do stick their head above the parapet to voice such opinions often get ridiculed by their peers.
so do people who posit a flat earth

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20857 on: August 03, 2017, 06:27:34 PM »
Leaving aside the issue of the attributes that are less than awesome, how would anyone recognise divine purpose in an attribute ?
I know you disagree, but I regard our attribute of freedom to choose as having divine purpose in giving us the opportunity to choose our destiny in Heaven by accepting Jesus as our divine Saviour.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20858 on: August 03, 2017, 06:31:16 PM »
I know you disagree, but I regard our attribute of freedom to choose as having divine purpose in giving us the opportunity to choose our destiny in Heaven by accepting Jesus as our divine Saviour.
That's the 'attribute' you assert, that you have been unable to provide any coherent definition of, and runs into to your complete inability to say how choice of belief might happen while you worship a sadistic murderer.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 06:33:33 PM by Nearly Sane »

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20859 on: August 03, 2017, 06:43:01 PM »
There are some biologists and other highly qualified scientist who have the courage to challenge the assumptions used in postulating the capabilities of unguided evolution to generate highly complex organs.

Such as? Tell us who and we can check their standing as professional scientists.

Quote
And it is apparent that scientists who do stick their head above the parapet to voice such opinions often get ridiculed by their peers.

Again - name names.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20860 on: August 03, 2017, 06:44:37 PM »
Yet the TOE seems to presume
You know when you said you really really really do actually understand evolution?

You don't.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20861 on: August 03, 2017, 06:52:45 PM »
AB,

Quote
Genetic mutations are the driving force -…

There’s no such expression as “driving force” in the TofE. If you meant something like “a critical component but by no means the only one” then yes, you’d be right.

Quote
…without them there would be no natural selection.

That much at least is true because there’d be nothing on which natural selection could act. Just as, say, without an engine a car wouldn’t be a car. That's not to say though that a car isn't a lot more than just an engine.

Quote
The main point I have tried to make is that truly beneficial mutations will be extremely rare if all mutations are randomly generated.

Two problems there. First, once again “beneficial” is a judgment after the event. As you actually mean something like, “better adapted to their environment” then say so.

Second, yes adaptations that better enable the genome to relate to its environment can be said to be rare in the sense that, say, they happen 1/1,000, 1/1,000,000 etc times a mutation occurs. They are precisely not rare though when you take into account the billions of events and the huge amounts of time involved. Rarity depends on context – when you look at the number of opportunities for them to occur they could just as well be described as common.

To point it another way, your “point” still fails.   

Quote
Yet the TOE seems to presume…

The TofE doesn’t “presume” anything other than its underlying axioms (as do all theories). Rather it relies on evidence, mathematical modelling and various other techniques to arrive at its conclusions. It’s an exceptionally well-supported theory – in some was better supported than the germ theory of disease and the theory of gravity – and your personal incredulity about it and misunderstanding of it doesn’t detract from that.

Quote
…that there will always be sufficient beneficial mutations to drive the natural selection process to build up highly complex organs using thousands of incremental steps, each of which has to have substantial survival benefit in its own right.

No it doesn’t say there will “always be” anything. What it actually says is that all the available evidence tells us that complexity has always come from prior incremental steps. 

Quote
You claim the end product is just pure chance, because the TOE has no underlying aims or goals apart from survival.

I don’t “claim” it – it’s just simple logic.

Quote
But can you not see divine purpose in the awesome attributes you have acquired?

No, because that would be irrational and potentially idiotic for several reasons that have been explained to you repeatedly and at length already but that you continue to ignore. 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 07:06:36 PM by bluehillside »
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20862 on: August 03, 2017, 06:56:31 PM »
AB,

Quote
I know you disagree, but I regard our attribute of freedom to choose as having divine purpose in giving us the opportunity to choose our destiny in Heaven by accepting Jesus as our divine Saviour.

Thank you for that bit of personal faith sharing. If ever you feel like making an argument to support it that isn't hopeless though, by all means come back to this discussion board to tell us what it is.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20863 on: August 03, 2017, 06:58:35 PM »
Ow. ( :D )
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20864 on: August 03, 2017, 09:23:42 PM »
There are some biologists and other highly qualified scientist who have the courage to challenge the assumptions used in postulating the capabilities of unguided evolution to generate highly complex organs.  And it is apparent that scientists who do stick their head above the parapet to voice such opinions often get ridiculed by their peers.

The vast majority of those working in the field of evolutionary biology would disagree with your views stated here. This is nothing to do with lack of courage but because that is what the evidence supports. I am sure you will come out with the usual list of doubters which consists mostly of people who don't work in the field or haven't done so for decades. My question though was why you think you know better than evolutionary biologists but you haven't really answered that.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20865 on: August 03, 2017, 10:41:03 PM »
That's the 'attribute' you assert, that you have been unable to provide any coherent definition of, and runs into to your complete inability to say how choice of belief might happen while you worship a sadistic murderer.
It is my choice to worship one who suffered and died to save us from sin and death.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 10:45:50 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20866 on: August 03, 2017, 10:42:07 PM »
It is my choice to worship one who suffered and died to save me from sin and death.
and who murdered Charlie Gard

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20867 on: August 03, 2017, 11:04:45 PM »
AB,

Quote
It is my choice to worship one who I happen to believe as a matter of personal faith suffered and died to save us from sin and death.

Corrected it for you, though why you would want to "worship" anything is beyond me. Stockholm syndrome I guess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20868 on: August 03, 2017, 11:21:19 PM »
and who murdered Charlie Gard
Charlie died from natural causes, unlike the eight million babies who have been murdered in their own mother's womb since 1967.

One thing that became apparent from Charlie's short life is the value of human life.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 11:23:20 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20869 on: August 03, 2017, 11:26:17 PM »
AB,

Corrected it for you, though why you would want to "worship" anything is beyond me. Stockholm syndrome I guess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
But apparently my "wants" are just an inevitable consequence of the deterministic nature of my brain activity/ ???
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20870 on: August 03, 2017, 11:32:11 PM »
Genetic mutations are the driving force - without them there would be no natural selection.  The main point I have tried to make is that truly beneficial mutations will be extremely rare if all mutations are randomly generated.  Yet the TOE seems to presume that there will always be sufficient beneficial mutations to drive the natural selection process to build up highly complex organs using thousands of incremental steps, each of which has to have substantial survival benefit in its own right.  You claim the end product is just pure chance, because the TOE has no underlying aims or goals apart from survival.  But can you not see divine purpose in the awesome attributes you have acquired?

Look up the Lederberg Experiment performed in 1952, Alan, which is clear evidence for the undirected nature of mutations.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20871 on: August 03, 2017, 11:57:12 PM »
Charlie died from natural causes, unlike the eight million babies who have been murdered in their own mother's womb since 1967.

One thing that became apparent from Charlie's short life is the value of human life.
nah, you said your god does the genetic stuff. Your god chose that death. You worship a sadistic murderer

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20872 on: August 04, 2017, 05:51:46 AM »
It is my choice to worship one who suffered and died to save us from sin and death.
... and evil, and was a crashing failure at it (q.v. #20574).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 05:54:10 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20873 on: August 04, 2017, 05:57:05 AM »
Charlie died from natural causes
If a supernatural god oversees literally everything - which presumably you believe, which you could clarify - can there be said to be any natural causes?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20874 on: August 04, 2017, 06:17:49 AM »
I know you disagree, but I regard our attribute of freedom to choose as having divine purpose in giving us the opportunity to choose our destiny in Heaven by accepting Jesus as our divine Saviour.

we cannot choose to believe things that we don't believe though so the above makes no sense; neither can we choose to want things that we don't want.  All these freedoms are illusory, so this 'divine attribute' must also be illusory.