Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

What I am saying is that science which is limited to investigating material properties is not capable of completely defining the source of human behaviour in material terms.

And there is a danger that if a person does believe that all one's thoughts, actions and words are unavoidably pre determined, it can give them the green light to do whatever they like on the understanding that they can't possibly do anything to change their behaviour, because changing their behaviour would require a consciously driven choice to do so.

Argumentum ad consequentiam. When you go full fallacy you really do pile them up.

[Shaker]

The kids will have plenty of time and opportunity to do their own thing at university and beyond

I bet they're counting the minutes.

[ippy]

Yup - I definitely think I am doing my kids a favour by indoctrinating them into a religion - it appears to work in undermining some of the cultural influences they are exposed that I do not want them to adopt and keeps them busy - e.g. reciting the Quran in Arabic is a family activity and stretches their brains rather than allowing them to be on their phones or watching tv or on the internet or chatting with friends or hanging around at shopping centres. I find religion a pretty effective tool in countering peer influence to do pointless activities like drinking and dating and aimlessly hanging around, along with other tools such as public exams, Java coding courses, sport, work experience, volunteering, family cultural activities that usually revolve around hanging out with your cousins, cooking together, serving together, eating together, clearing up together or even fasting together and then eating together... 

The kids will have plenty of time and opportunity to do their own thing at university and beyond, but while I am held legally and financially accountable for their actions until they are 18, I need tools to get them to toe the line and not cause me unnecessary headaches by getting into problems that they do not have the capability or resources to resolve yet without running to Mum and Dad.

Bully for you.

ippy

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I bet they're counting the minutes.

I hope so.

I am counting the minutes until I am no longer financially or legally responsible for them - which means I no longer have to deal with the responsibilities of parenting a child but can deal with them as adults, where they make their own decisions and deal with the consequences themselves.

I enjoy watching them be better/ more talented than me in many aspects of their life with the opportunities they have been given.

Hopefully I have given them enough incentive to leave home and be self-sufficient because freedom will be more appealing to them even if it means forgoing the bank of Mum and Dad and living at home. If they like what Islam has to offer even when they're adults, great, if not, oh well.

If they have the grit to not crave my approval or support, even better. I will probably be quietly impressed even if they tell me to f*** off and live their own lives, if it works for them and I don't need to bail them out.   

[SweetPea]

Would it? Well to make it clear, there is NO evidence god exists.

Floo.... research the fibonacci sequence.

[Shaker]

Floo.... research the fibonacci sequence.

This is some sort of jest or rather an attempt at one, I assume?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Bully for you.

ippy

Just pointing out that if religious rituals and beliefs bind people together and provide an effective counter-influence to certain cultural pressures, some/ many people are going to continue indoctrinating their children in religious beliefs and rituals as a less bad option to the perceived alternatives.

If you and Susan are hoping for a wholesale lack of religious belief and rituals group-think - not very realistic based on the current evidence that humans throughout history like rituals. Besides I think society works better with diverse beliefs and rituals rather than group-think. Company board of directors also increasingly take the approach that diversity is good for a company's ability to innovate and adapt to a changing environment.

[Shaker]

If you and Susan are hoping for a wholesale lack of religious belief and rituals group-think - not very realistic based on the current evidence that humans throughout history like rituals.

The current evidence is that increasingly these 'rituals' are not religious. Thank goodness.

[SusanDoris]

Just pointing out that if religious rituals and beliefs bind people together and provide an effective counter-influence to certain cultural pressures, some/ many people are going to continue indoctrinating their children in religious beliefs and rituals as a less bad option to the perceived alternatives.

If you and Susan are hoping for a wholesale lack of religious belief and rituals group-think - not very realistic based on the current evidence that humans throughout history like rituals. Besides I think society works better with diverse beliefs and rituals rather than group-think. Company board of directors also increasingly take the approach that diversity is good for a company's ability to innovate and adapt to a changing environment.

Does your indoctrination of your children include the belief that there is a one God? If so, what evidence do you give them that this is so?
Why is that better than helping them to understand the real truth and magic of reality and the evolution of the human species being a totally natural event? 

[SweetPea]

This is some sort of jest or rather an attempt at one, I assume?

Nope.... is this reply some sort of jest or an attempt at one?

[Nearly Sane]

Does your indoctrination of your children include the belief that there is a one God? If so, what evidence do you give them that this is so?
Why is that better than helping them to understand the real truth and magic of reality and the evolution of the human species being a totally natural event?

Mmm, we don't have a methodology to show that. Science isd methodological natural, and us based on that assumption. It can't show something isn't supernatural because that's not what the methodology dies.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The current evidence is that increasingly these 'rituals' are not religious. Thank goodness.

There is no evidence to indicate that religious rituals will disappear though. Just keeping it real for Susan and Ippy.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Does your indoctrination of your children include the belief that there is a one God? If so, what evidence do you give them that this is so?
Why is that better than helping them to understand the real truth and magic of reality and the evolution of the human species being a totally natural event?

The one God concept is a religious belief -  it doesn't rely on repeatable, testable evidence that can be demonstrated objectively. it relies on whether the belief adds a useful element to a person's perspective and approach to the way they live their life, which is of course a subjective assessment made by the individual. A belief in one God doesn't take away any enjoyment in learning about evolution or the various discoveries about fossils and DNA or the best scientific explanation currently available based on those discoveries.   

[Maeght]

Floo.... research the fibonacci sequence.

How is that evidence of God?

[Shaker]

Nope.... is this reply some sort of jest or an attempt at one?

Oh dear. I suppose it was too much to expect you to explain what the Fibonacci sequence has to do with anything.

So it goes.

[Shaker]

There is no evidence to indicate that religious rituals will disappear though.

Alas no, if you mean in a global context - the daft, like the poor, are always with us.

Just keeping it real for Susan and Ippy

Except it was ippy who wrote: "Of course this religious indoctrination will always be on a percentage basis some will escape the nonsensical rubbish they come out with, and there will also be those that are deeply steeped into any nonsense you like to preach" (#21064), from which you somehow extracted: "If you and Susan are hoping for a wholesale lack of religious belief and rituals group-think" (#21106), so it's pretty clear to me who's on the side of 'real' here and who is merely throwing straw around.

[torridon]

This is some sort of jest or rather an attempt at one, I assume?

Shakes, Maeght :

I think this refers to the fact that mathematical patterns are found throughout nature therefore there must be a mathematician who made the cosmos.  I remember Rosindubh spent quite some time propounding this view a few months back.  It seems to require a certain reframing of god from a source of moral goodness to a maths nerd.  To me, the mathematical quality of the universe suggests the primal cause of why anything exists is logic.

[torridon]

Just pointing out that if religious rituals and beliefs bind people together and provide an effective counter-influence to certain cultural pressures, some/ many people are going to continue indoctrinating their children in religious beliefs and rituals as a less bad option to the perceived alternatives.

If you and Susan are hoping for a wholesale lack of religious belief and rituals group-think - not very realistic based on the current evidence that humans throughout history like rituals. Besides I think society works better with diverse beliefs and rituals rather than group-think. Company board of directors also increasingly take the approach that diversity is good for a company's ability to innovate and adapt to a changing environment.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.  Binding people together with rituals and beliefs is creating group think and as such is the enemy of diversity.  Indoctrination is always bad, it is a form of abuse.

[torridon]

And there is a danger that if a person does believe that all one's thoughts, actions and words are unavoidably pre determined, it can give them the green light to do whatever they like on the understanding that they can't possibly do anything to change their behaviour, because changing their behaviour would require a consciously driven choice to do so.

I understand that but I think it a misplaced fear.  It is reminiscent of the earlier fear that atheism would lead to the breakdown of civilisation when people realised there was no god watching them and judging their behaviour.  Whereas the opposite seems to be the case since countries like Sweden which are largely atheist have much lower crime issues than countries like Mexico where religions still persist.  I know that is simplistic, but I think there is probably a nugget of causal truth in the mix.

[Nearly Sane]

This is some sort of jest or rather an attempt at one, I assume?

No, unfortunately not


http://thebibletruther.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-fibonacci-sequence-proof-of-god-and.html

[Shaker]

Shakes, Maeght :

I think this refers to the fact that mathematical patterns are found throughout nature therefore there must be a mathematician who made the cosmos.  I remember Rosindubh spent quite some time propounding this view a few months back.  It seems to require a certain reframing of god from a source of moral goodness to a maths nerd.  To me, the mathematical quality of the universe suggests the primal cause of why anything exists is logic.

This seems to pretty arbritraily elevate mathematics to the be-all and end-all yardstick of attempts to prove a god's existence.

As far as I'm aware there has been no human culture or society without some form of numbering system however elementary; but then there has been no human culture or society without food or some concept of cuisine either, yet to think of God as a divine and supremely almighty chef would be thought ridiculous.

[Shaker]

No, unfortunately not

http://thebibletruther.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-fibonacci-sequence-proof-of-god-and.html

Well there's the stupidest thing I'll read until the next time.

[Aruntraveller]

The Bible tells us that God created EVERYTHING in the world in 7 days. How much more evidence do we need before we finally remove our pride and accept that there is a CREATOR and that we have been lied to for the purpose of control, greed and evil?

This could have been written by one of our very own posters.

The similarities are quite remarkable - even down to the use of arbitrary capitals. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Alas no, if you mean in a global context - the daft, like the poor, are always with us.

I mean in a family context, in a community context, in a city context, in a country context. If you find them daft that's your subjective assessment of people that you need to deal with as you see fit.

Being poor is relative. By the way did you mean cash poor, asset poor, resource poor, lacking food - what is the objective measure of poor that you are using?

Except it was ippy who wrote: "Of course this religious indoctrination will always be on a percentage basis some will escape the nonsensical rubbish they come out with, and there will also be those that are deeply steeped into any nonsense you like to preach" (#21064), from which you somehow extracted: "If you and Susan are hoping for a wholesale lack of religious belief and rituals group-think" (#21106), so it's pretty clear to me who's on the side of 'real' here and who is merely throwing straw around.

Your analysis is daft. Ippy is well known for complaining about religious people indoctrinating their children into their religious beliefs. I was responding to a specific post by Ippy that said religious people think they are doing young people a favour by indoctrinating them and Ippy was responding to a post by Susan who had hopes that religious ideas would disappear as more and people abandoned religious ideas.

What is pretty clear is that you do not understand what the phrase "hoping for" means. Or are you suggesting that Ippy is hoping for a percentage of people in society to always be "deeply steeped" in religion?

[floo]

No, incorrect, there is only the ability to say you ate not aware of it. You are making the black swan mistake.

Ehhhhhhhhhhh?