Searching for GOD...

[SusanDoris]

Gabriella

this topic is called 'Searching for god'. In performing the Ramadan fasting, have you ever found God?

In my personal opinion, I cannot think of any rational reason for such a month of fasting, but that's probably too far off topic.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Is that a fair thing to impose on a child that keeps fit through swimming? You have alternatives.

My daughter is aware that sometimes life isn't "fair".

For 30 days - sure - she'll cope. She just has to put it in perspective.

I also think it's very useful for my daughter to learn fairly early on that things are not always fair or easy and sacrifices cause hardship, and being able to cope with hardship and sacrifice is a useful skill to learn - I think as useful as swimming.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella

this topic is called 'Searching for god'. In performing the Ramadan fasting, have you ever found God?

In my personal opinion, I cannot think of any rational reason for such a month of fasting, but that's probably too far off topic.

Maybe. The fast and praying is inexplicably easy during Ramadan but suddenly becomes difficult to do any other month, to the point where i just can't do it for more than a couple of days at the most any other time. But during Ramadan the lack of sleep and food and the extended evening prayers and the reciting is always easier than anticipated, the month goes by faster than expected. I could interpret that as a sign of God.

[Rhiannon]

My daughter is aware that sometimes life isn't "fair".

For 30 days - sure - she'll cope. She just has to put it in perspective.

I also think it's very useful for my daughter to learn fairly early on that things are not always fair or easy and sacrifices cause hardship, and being able to cope with hardship and sacrifice is a useful skill to learn - I think as useful as swimming.

My children are also very aware that life isn't fair and their sacrifices have been larger than they should be. But that has not been imposed as a result of an expectation that they adhere to the religion of my choosing or any of its rituals and practices. Life throws up plenty of unfairness. Why cause more with the artificiality of religion? They can choose to 'sacrifice' later as adults.

[Shaker]

Life throws up plenty of unfairness. Why cause more with the artificiality of religion?

That was going to be my point exactly.

There is the unfairness which we can't escape and which none of us can do anything about, and there's the deliberate unfairness which is imposed from without by others. Often masquerading as "It's for your own good".

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

My children are also very aware that life isn't fair and their sacrifices have been larger than they should be. But that has not been imposed as a result of an expectation that they adhere to the religion of my choosing or any of its rituals and practices. Life throws up plenty of unfairness. Why cause more with the artificiality of religion? They can choose to 'sacrifice' later as adults.

IMO it's useful to practise sacrifice and to experience unfairness in small doses and get used to the associated emotions in a relatively safe environment with your parents before you experience it in the real world when you're on your own and have more additional pressures and disappointments to deal with.

Kind of like scuba diving where you have to wait and get accustomed to the pressure before diving deeper and you have an instructor to begin with on your dives before getting your open water licence.

[Shaker]

My daughter is aware that sometimes life isn't "fair".

For 30 days - sure - she'll cope. She just has to put it in perspective.

Perhaps instead you could "put it in perspective" and let your kid eat her fucking dinner.

[Gordon]

IMO it's useful to practise sacrifice and to experience unfairness in small doses and get used to the associated emotions in a relatively safe environment with your parents before you experience it in the real world when you're on your own and have more additional pressures and disappointments to deal with.

Kind of like scuba diving where you have to wait and get accustomed to the pressure before diving deeper and you have an instructor to begin with on your dives before getting your open water licence.

Thing is though, there is no widespread parental/familial/cultural pressure to participate in scuba diving.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

That was going to be my point exactly.

There is the unfairness which we can't escape and which none of us can do anything about, and there's the deliberate unfairness which is imposed from without by others. Often masquerading as "It's for your own good".

Yes I do a lot of "it's for your own good" - what can I say, I keep being given  a lot of decisions to make about these short people in my home. If they try making their own decisions and cause themselves problems they tend to grudgingly prefer me to make them.

For example my 17 year old made her own decisions about how much study vs TV vs socialising she was going to do, and didn't get the end of 1st year A'Level exam result she wanted to get the Chemistry A'Level prediction she needed to go on the course she really wants to do. She wants to do French at university but you need 3 As or AAB or ABB to go to the universities she thinks she would be happy at and she is predicted a C for Chemistry due to lack of study leading to a poor exam mark.

She grudgingly acknowledged she feels stressed by not knowing where to go from here and is now letting me direct her to some kind of plan for the future, which involves less socialising and often involves me reminding her it is for her own good.

Actually, to be fair my 17 year old is taller than me.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Perhaps instead you could "put it in perspective" and let your kid eat her fucking dinner.

I have put it in perspective.

No dinner seems to be a minor discomfort she copes with. She often skips dinner anyway - she eats a lot of breakfast and lunch though. But your concern is so sweet.

ETA: Actually she eats breakfast and dinner during fasting. It's just breakfast is very early and dinner is at sunset so during the summer it is a late dinner. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Thing is though, there is no widespread parental/familial/cultural pressure to participate in scuba diving.

Umm... the scuba diving is a metaphor for the pressures in life that people are exposed to as they grow up and take on more responsibilities.

[Rhiannon]

IMO it's useful to practise sacrifice and to experience unfairness in small doses and get used to the associated emotions in a relatively safe environment with your parents before you experience it in the real world when you're on your own and have more additional pressures and disappointments to deal with.

Kind of like scuba diving where you have to wait and get accustomed to the pressure before diving deeper and you have an instructor to begin with on your dives before getting your open water licence.

But again life throws up enough shit, even in the supposed safety of childhood. Why add more?

You are also assuming that your children really do see this as a sacrifice, not just something to feel bored and fed up with.

[Gordon]

Umm... the scuba diving is a metaphor for the pressures in life that people are exposed to as they grow up and take on more responsibilities.

Yes - but the thing is do these pressures require the involvement of religion?

I can easily avoid the demands of learning to scuba dive, or feel obliged to ensure my kids learned to scuba dive, since it isn't an essential skill in terms of the preparation of young people for the challenges of life: it is a specific skill that applies to the few and not the many. So the analogy of scuba diving doesn't fit well with the role of religion, where those who advocate religion as an important element in the development of young people seem to think it has a general relevance (which is presumably why they evangelise or get upset when people who were involved as youngsters then decide to opt out).

Some of us bring up our children without reference to religion, which suggests to me it isn't an essential. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

But again life throws up enough shit, even in the supposed safety of childhood. Why add more?

I think they have a pretty easy life even if you take into account the fasting. It depends on the perspective you take and the fasting is shrugged off as not much of a hardship when put in perspective - when my daughter found it too difficult to fast she broke her fast, when she did not find it too difficult to fast she fasted. She wanted to participate in the family ritual as her sister and cousins were fasting. I am guessing that whatever she got out of being part of the extended family activity motivated her to fast.

You are also assuming that your children really do see this as a sacrifice, not just something to feel bored and fed up with.

Not really that fussed to be honest - they might feel bored and fed up. I feel bored and fed up sometimes so it stands to reason they might as well. First world problems.

[Rhiannon]

I think they have a pretty easy life even if you take into account the fasting. It depends on the perspective you take and the fasting is shrugged off as not much of a hardship when put in perspective - when my daughter found it too difficult to fast she broke her fast, when she did not find it too difficult to fast she fasted. She wanted to participate in the family ritual as her sister and cousins were fasting. I am guessing that whatever she got out of being part of the extended family activity motivated her to fast.
Not really that fussed to be honest - they might feel bored and fed up. I feel bored and fed up sometimes so it stands to reason they might as well. First world problems.

If she's agreeing to something because it's a familial thing then that isn't a sacrifice. And if it's boring then that teaches her what about religion and spirituality exactly?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes - but the thing is do these pressures require the involvement of religion?

Require? No I don't think so.

Religion works for me so I pass it onto my children as they participate in a lot of family activities and it would be difficult for them to participate and feel part of the family if they have not learned the rituals and practices - they might decide later to not participate. Similarly my kids learned to eat curry at a young age because that was a family activity. But if they had not learned to eat curry because they were brought up in an Italian family they wouldn't have starved - they would have eaten a lot of pasta.

If i had remained an atheist I would have passed that onto my children in that they would participate in family activities that involved no reference to a God.

I can easily avoid the demands of learning to scuba dive, or feel obliged to ensure my kids learned to scuba dive, since it isn't an essential skill in terms of the preparation of young people for the challenges of life: it is a specific skill that applies to the few and not the many. So the analogy of scuba diving doesn't fit well with the role of religion, where those who advocate religion as an important element in the development of young people seem to think it has a general relevance (which is presumably why they evangelise or get upset when people who were involved as youngsters then decide to opt out).

Some us bring up our children without reference to religion, which suggests to me it isn't an essential.

The analogy of scuba diving was about the transition from child responsibilities to the increased pressure of adult responsibilities and having to wait at certain levels to equalise/ get used to the pressure before proceeding to deeper pressures and having an instructor before you dive solo. Scuba diving had nothing to do with religion.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

If she's agreeing to something because it's a familial thing then that isn't a sacrifice.

It's not a problem if as a kid you don't fully grasp the sacrifice angle - I think it is useful to practise the fasting and figure out it's not as difficult as you thought plus you learn a few things about yourself - you get a sense of accomplishment when you can do it and it helps you realise that it is a case of mind over matter, your body can cope fine without food and water for a period of time and that we often eat when we're bored and not because we really need the food.

And if it's boring then that teaches her what about religion and spirituality exactly?

That spirituality and religion can be boring. And people can cope with boredom. And boredom goes with the territory sometimes when you're part of a family doing family activities.

[ippy]

I find the concept of a "God that can't be defined" not that difficult to believe in, once you get to the point where you can't rule out the supernatural entirely.

How about you can't rule out orbiting teapots, unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, alien abduction either?

However, having said the above, I do believe there are still some that think 'Star Trek' is fictional? 

ippy

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

How about you can't rule out orbiting teapots, unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, alien abduction either?

However, having said the above, I do believe there are still some that think 'Star Trek' is fictional? 

ippy

Whatever works for you.

I don't find any benefit from those concepts. But I don't mind hearing about what you get out of them if you want to elaborate.

[ippy]

Whatever works for you.

I don't find any benefit from those concepts. But I don't mind hearing about what you get out of them if you want to elaborate.

I would have thought anyone has heard about Bertram Russell's teapot, therefore no need to elaborate, that's the point, teapot, look it up if you don't understand.

ippy

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I would have thought anyone has heard about Bertram Russell's teapot, therefore no need to elaborate, that's the point, teapot, look it up if you don't understand.

ippy

No that's fine - I don't get anything out of it. I just thought you wanted to talk about what you got out of it as you brought it up.

[ippy]

No that's fine - I don't get anything out of it. I just thought you wanted to talk about what you got out of it as you brought it up.

In your words: 'I find the concept of a "God that can't be defined" not that difficult to believe in, once you get to the point where you can't rule out the supernatural entirely'.

No I didn't bring this up and it looks like you don't understand Burt's rather superb quote look it up, you might then understand.

ippy

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

In your words: 'I find the concept of a "God that can't be defined" not that difficult to believe in, once you get to the point where you can't rule out the supernatural entirely'.

No I didn't bring this up and it looks like you don't understand Burt's rather superb quote look it up, you might then understand.

ippy

No that's fine - you explain what you get out of it if you want. I don't mind if you want to share your perspective - it's a message board so that's what it's for - sharing different perspectives, discussing them etc

[torridon]

And again you accuse those who disagree with you lying.

No - deluded

That's a bit rich from someone with persistent beliefs in unevidenced concepts like gods, souls, miracles and so forth.  Most atheists merely espouse a default position of 'show us the evidence'.  I don't see how absence of a belief could form the basis of a delusion.

[ippy]

No that's fine - you explain what you get out of it if you want. I don't mind if you want to share your perspective - it's a message board so that's what it's for - sharing different perspectives, discussing them etc

No need for me to explain anything, Burt does a splendid job read it, and if you don't see what it is with his fameous teapot, I'm sure there isn't anything I could add.

ippy