Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3877140 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21200 on: August 09, 2017, 08:36:19 AM »
No need for me to explain anything, Burt does a splendid job read it, and if you don't see what it is with his fameous teapot, I'm sure there isn't anything I could add.

ippy
No that's fine - I'm not really that bothered. If it was important to you, you would have explained why.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21201 on: August 09, 2017, 09:01:44 AM »
Why does anyone think there is in fact a god when there is no reason to do so other than others assertions telling us about their beliefs,
(superstitious beliefs unless found to be otherwise), beliefs in various gods?

What is so imperative about getting these beliefs installed in those very young vulnerable children below the age of seven?

Just dismissing this as:

'I can't speak for how other religious people teach their children about religion. I can only speak for those religious people I have encountered that teach their children their beliefs - beliefs aren't facts. They are expressed as beliefs with an explanation of why we hold those beliefs. Some religious people may express their beliefs as facts - many children and adults tend to be smart enough to challenge unevidenced facts - but it probably does not stop the person who feels certain about their beliefs to continue to feel certain about them despite the challenges'.


I doubt very much any of the immediately above is explained as only a belief to the children and as I'm sure you're aware, with the very young it's well known they don't acquire the ability to challenge, on average, until after about the age of seven; knowing this and still placing myth, magic and superstition into their heads, not making the belief part clear, I like a lot of others would say this is a form of abuse and would take some convincing otherwise. 

It's not the case teaching religion when young, their'll make up their minds later on when they're grown up, on a large percentage basis the deed is done, new recruits for the cause, I'd rather see lets have new recruits for progress with open minds without relying  ancient goat herders scribes, and their like, to tell us the how.

'Ok but I do see a reason to teach gods, souls, devils and the like as stand alone concepts (rather than literally as there is no evidence with which to define gods, souls and devils). I find those useful concepts and tools for myself in adjusting my perspective and thinking.That we both have different views on what is useful to teach our respective children isn't a problem for me'.   


What's wrong with some Hansel and Gretel just a good without the lying and yes I agree with you none of us knows the absolute truth but most of us know where the evidence lies.

I'm with Blue on bringing up children and if evidence is found to substantiate religious belief as soon as I see and hear about it I will do an immediate about turn, can't see that happening any time soon though.

ippy

Must give my spell check a rest now, it's running red hot, I have always had a job spelling my own name let alone anything else.
Sorry - just saw this.

Why do I think there is a God? Reading the Quran resonated with me - I felt a connection to the ideas in the text even though I wasn't looking for spiritual guidance. Actually I when I first read the Quran I thought it would be a pile of crap so I wasn't expecting to find anything I could relate to. Also, when I followed some of the rituals and practices it helped me deal with certain aspects of life in a better frame of mind. It was like going to the gym and feeling stronger and more energetic and disciplined to deal better with other areas of life, not just the exercising.

As for getting the beliefs installed in children under 7 - it comes up in conversation and family activities - if the children want to be a part of our lives rather than side-lined or sent to boarding school they will be influenced by the way we live our lives as they participate in our lives. I am not going to have philosophical conversations with a 5 year old so they simply follow what their parents do as a way of sharing time and closeness and building emotional bonds. If you can't understand that this is how families and bonding works, that's your problem. When they are old enough to want to have philosophical discussions about beliefs I am happy to discuss them.

When they go to school and interact with people with other beliefs and go to R.E. lessons and learn about other religions they question the beliefs they are brought up with. It's natural and part of the education process - I am not sure why you are skeptical about this concept. My children didn't have any trouble with grasping the idea of different beliefs and the lack of evidence.

If what you believe about children and abuse is true  - then I had no idea my children were so exceptionally intelligent and strong to have survived the abuse compared to other children you seem to have come into contact with. They both question Islamic beliefs and the existence of a God at various times. Some of their cousins question the existence of a god and Islamic beliefs. Their friends question the existence of a god - even the ones with parents who practice a religion. Maybe it's a London phenomenon. But given you have failed to provide any evidence to back up your opinions and assertions on children, it's unlikely to be worth taking much notice of your opinion.

If Hansel and Gretal works for you and is an integral part of your daily activities - feel free to teach your children Hansel and Gretal.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

john

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21202 on: August 09, 2017, 09:33:27 AM »
AB you said,


It is the God given gifts of conscious perception and free thinking which have enabled such human achievements.  These gifts are also responsible for exploring religious faith as well as the workings of our universe.


That isn't what I asked is it?

Let me try to express my self more clearly......

We can see the effects of mankind's science; A man on the moon for example, we could follow the spaceship with our telescopes, see the pictures brought back, examine the rock samples. We can see medical science curing diseases every day. We can see man made electricity driving engines, etc.

What I asked you for is an example of something God has done that cannot be attributed to anything else. Something we can see, experience and measure. Not some flowery wishy washy feelings but an actual thing.

Why can we not see God himself/herself? Why can we not see heaven in our telescopes? Why can we not see "a miracle", something only God could do and we could measure.

Simple question.




"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

john

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21203 on: August 09, 2017, 09:36:39 AM »
Shaker


"Perhaps instead you could "put it in perspective" and let your kid eat her fucking dinner."

Brilliant  ;D




"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21204 on: August 09, 2017, 11:12:07 AM »
No that's fine - I'm not really that bothered. If it was important to you, you would have explained why.

Bit of a mess, it looks like we don't seem to want to understand much, either that or it's too much trouble.

It'd be better for you if you did understand but if you don't well that's a problem for you.

ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21205 on: August 09, 2017, 11:16:04 AM »
Sorry - just saw this.

Why do I think there is a God? Reading the Quran resonated with me - I felt a connection to the ideas in the text even though I wasn't looking for spiritual guidance. Actually I when I first read the Quran I thought it would be a pile of crap so I wasn't expecting to find anything I could relate to. Also, when I followed some of the rituals and practices it helped me deal with certain aspects of life in a better frame of mind. It was like going to the gym and feeling stronger and more energetic and disciplined to deal better with other areas of life, not just the exercising.

As for getting the beliefs installed in children under 7 - it comes up in conversation and family activities - if the children want to be a part of our lives rather than side-lined or sent to boarding school they will be influenced by the way we live our lives as they participate in our lives. I am not going to have philosophical conversations with a 5 year old so they simply follow what their parents do as a way of sharing time and closeness and building emotional bonds. If you can't understand that this is how families and bonding works, that's your problem. When they are old enough to want to have philosophical discussions about beliefs I am happy to discuss them.

When they go to school and interact with people with other beliefs and go to R.E. lessons and learn about other religions they question the beliefs they are brought up with. It's natural and part of the education process - I am not sure why you are skeptical about this concept. My children didn't have any trouble with grasping the idea of different beliefs and the lack of evidence.

If what you believe about children and abuse is true  - then I had no idea my children were so exceptionally intelligent and strong to have survived the abuse compared to other children you seem to have come into contact with. They both question Islamic beliefs and the existence of a God at various times. Some of their cousins question the existence of a god and Islamic beliefs. Their friends question the existence of a god - even the ones with parents who practice a religion. Maybe it's a London phenomenon. But given you have failed to provide any evidence to back up your opinions and assertions on children, it's unlikely to be worth taking much notice of your opinion.

If Hansel and Gretal works for you and is an integral part of your daily activities - feel free to teach your children Hansel and Gretal.

Don't let it worry you.

ippy

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21206 on: August 09, 2017, 11:47:28 AM »
Gabriella

What logical, rational reason do you give to your children for  fasting? I cannot think of a single one.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21207 on: August 09, 2017, 11:53:23 AM »
Gabriella

What logical, rational reason do you give to your children for  fasting? I cannot think of a single one.

Nothing like trying to run in treacle Susan, (Or tap dance).

ippy

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21208 on: August 09, 2017, 11:59:32 AM »
Gabriella

What logical, rational reason do you give to your children for  fasting? I cannot think of a single one.

Nor can I.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21209 on: August 09, 2017, 01:20:26 PM »
Bit of a mess, it looks like we don't seem to want to understand much, either that or it's too much trouble.

It'd be better for you if you did understand but if you don't well that's a problem for you.

ippy
Not a problem for me - I, along with many others I suspect, seem to have got by just fine in life without teapots and Hansal and Gretal but if they are useful for you by all means indulge.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21210 on: August 09, 2017, 01:25:28 PM »
Shaker


"Perhaps instead you could "put it in perspective" and let your kid eat her fucking dinner."

Brilliant  ;D
Yes I thought it was really sweet of him, the daft soul with his first world problems. All those starving children all over the world and here he is worrying about my fit, healthy daughter's dinner.   
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21211 on: August 09, 2017, 01:26:33 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
Because I perceive that religiosity has a useful effect on my emotions and perspective and I find religiosity interesting.

I find it interesting too – my point though was (and is) that calling values of which you happen to approve (as do I) “religious” is a misnomer.         

Quote
I find the concept of something more than we can prove with our limited capabilities interesting. I find the concept of limitations interesting. I find the concept of something without limitations interesting. I find the concept of never really knowing or understanding how something without limitations works interesting. I find the concept of accountability and judgement interesting and especially useful in modulating behaviour. There is a lot more but you get the gist.

Yes, although other words for “concept” are “speculation” or “guess”. Which is fine, if incoherent. For my part I can’t get interested in something that’s “not even wrong” until and unless at least some basic definitional issues are addressed, but hey – that’s just me I guess.       

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That's exactly what I say. I also add that I find the belief useful and I say why.

If it works for you…

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I don't lose any sleep over that. My experience of my kids are that they are clever and as they get older they can figure out for themselves what beliefs they find useful to hold on to.

Well, perhaps. My experience though is that those “indoctrinated” (to use your word) in childhood find it almost impossible to shake off the attendant beliefs in later life, however otherwise rational and reasoning they may be – and yes, however harmful to themselves and others the faith beliefs might be. That’s why so often religions want to get to kids before their critical faculties are developed – as the Jesuits say with good reason, “Give me the child until seven and I’ll give you the man”.     

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It's a time thing. If I am busy doing religious stuff which I find useful for me, there are only so many hours in the day and I may not have time to engage. Some people prefer to play golf.

Golf though doesn’t entail claims of truths that the claimants cannot know to be true, but OK…   

Quote
I think the risk is worth taking. I like my X irrationality - it works for me. I'll leave it to the imperfect law enforcement services, legal system and intelligence services to prevent criminal activity as best they can.

Some might suggest though that it’s a risk you’re taking on behalf of other people – the victims at the end of the chain of irrationality you provide cover for at your nice end. I don’t want to come across as gittish here – you are of course entitled to believe (and to teach your girls) anything you like and that’s none of my or anyone else’s business. Suggesting that you’re sanguine about the law enforcement agencies picking up the pieces if that does happen though seems to me a somewhat “bracing” response to the issue.

This isn’t about you specifically by the way. I just look askance at any privileging of faith over rationalism from religious schools to bishops in the House of Lords.   

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I'm not sure what bit of what I said you are referring to. Would you mind quoting it?

Labelling the values of which you approve as “religious”. They’re no such thing, though some religions certainly endorse some of them. Some of them also incidentally endorse values of which you probably wouldn’t approve. As a mother of daughters for example, I’d have thought you’d at least raise an eyebrow at the misogyny practised in the name of your faith.     

Quote
Oh ok. If that was all his or her "education" consisted of then I would agree with you. But if that was just one part of their "education", well it doesn't affect me any more than watching a kid playing with Lego.

I was thinking more of children in madrassas in places like Pakistan. How should we engage with such people when they become citizens of the world armed with an understanding of that world entirely derived from an ancient religious text? 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 05:57:25 PM by bluehillside »
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God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21212 on: August 09, 2017, 01:30:01 PM »
Gabriella

What logical, rational reason do you give to your children for  fasting? I cannot think of a single one.
It is one way of practising self-restraint, which I have found helps when you want to exercise self-restraint in other areas of your life.

I have no idea if they actually fast though when they say they are fasting - they could be eating at school and on the way home.

I do know that when we're out and they are trying to convince me to spend money on buying them a snack and claim they are hungry, it's pretty easy for me to tell them that if they can fast all day, they can wait and eat when we get home. They can't argue with that so saves me some hassle arguing...and money.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21213 on: August 09, 2017, 01:34:27 PM »
It is one way of practising self-restraint, which I have found helps when you want to exercise self-restraint in other areas of your life.

I have no idea if they actually fast though when they say they are fasting - they could be eating at school and on the way home.

I do know that when we're out and they are trying to convince me to spend money on buying them a snack and claim they are hungry, it's pretty easy for me to tell them that if they can fast all day, they can wait and eat when we get home. They can't argue with that so saves me some hassle arguing...and money.

Surely children should definitely not be fasting when they are active like at school.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21214 on: August 09, 2017, 01:36:53 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
Not a problem for me - I, along with many others I suspect, seem to have got by just fine in life without teapots and Hansal and Gretal but if they are useful for you by all means indulge.

You’re missing the point still. When you said, “I find the concept of a "God that can't be defined" not that difficult to believe in, once you get to the point where you can't rule out the supernatural entirely” you were essaying a bad argument called the negative proof fallacy. Russell’s teapot is a thought experiment that illustrates the error of thinking not being able to falsify a conjecture tells you something about its probability. It doesn’t, regardless of whether the conjecture happens to be your “God” or an orbiting teapot. 

No-one in other words is claiming belief in the orbiting teapot (or in Hansel and Gretel). They were just explaining to you where your reasoning went wrong.
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God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21215 on: August 09, 2017, 01:45:24 PM »
Gabriella,

You’re missing the point still. When you said, “I find the concept of a "God that can't be defined" not that difficult to believe in, once you get to the point where you can't rule out the supernatural entirely” you were essaying a bad argument called the negative proof fallacy. Russell’s teapot is a thought experiment that illustrates the error of thinking not being able to falsify a conjecture tells you something about its probability. It doesn’t, regardless of whether the conjecture happens to be your “God” or an orbiting teapot. 

No-one in other words is claiming belief in the orbiting teapot (or in Hansel and Gretel). They were just explaining to you where your reasoning went wrong.
No - that would be a bad reason for believing in God if that was my only reason for believing in God. Cherry picking lines of what I say and ignoring everything else I say and therefore not putting my lines in the context of my recent posts on this thread is bad reasoning by Ippy. It's also a lazy and illogical way of trying to put forward an argument but if that's what keeps Ippy entertained, ok. 

Got to go meet some people for lunch so I'll answer your other post in the evening.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 01:51:44 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21216 on: August 09, 2017, 02:00:57 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
No - that would be a bad reason for believing in God if that was my only reason for believing in God. Cherry picking lines of what I say and ignoring everything else I say and therefore not putting my lines in the context of my recent posts on this thread is bad reasoning by Ippy. It's also a lazy and illogical way of trying to put forward an argument but if that's what keeps Ippy entertained, ok.

I wasn’t cherry picking anything – I was just explaining why suggesting that people believe in teapots and the like was missing the point ("I, along with many others I suspect, seem to have got by just fine in life without teapots and Hansal and Gretal but if they are useful for you by all means indulge."). Those people weren’t saying that they did believe in an orbiting teapot – rather they were responding to a bad argument you made for believing in “God”. If you have other arguments that’s up to you, but that one in particular is (for the reasons they explained) wrong.

Quote
Got to go meet some people for lunch so I'll answer your other post in the evening.

Have a nice lunch (and take an umbrella!)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:03:45 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21217 on: August 09, 2017, 02:18:43 PM »
If learning self-restraint needs to be associated with a religious belief, then it is not going to be as useful an acquired trait as self-restraint learnt because it is a good, practical and useful thing to do anyway.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21218 on: August 09, 2017, 02:29:56 PM »
If learning self-restraint needs to be associated with a religious belief, then it is not going to be as useful an acquired trait as self-restraint learnt because it is a good, practical and useful thing to do anyway.
why not?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21219 on: August 09, 2017, 02:33:09 PM »
Yes I thought it was really sweet of him, the daft soul with his first world problems. All those starving children all over the world and here he is worrying about my fit, healthy daughter's dinner.
Less that than the fatuous and asinine twaddle being pumped into her head telling her why she shouldn't eat - or worse, drink - until the street lights come on.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21220 on: August 09, 2017, 02:34:20 PM »
why not?
It is my opinion - strongly held of course!
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21221 on: August 09, 2017, 02:36:54 PM »
Surely children should definitely not be fasting when they are active like at school.
Why the hell should they be fasting at all?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21222 on: August 09, 2017, 02:39:20 PM »
Not a problem for me - I, along with many others I suspect, seem to have got by just fine in life without teapots and Hansal and Gretal
Though sadly not without a book allegedly dictated by a ghost to a man in a cave.

You'd have been better with Hansel and Gretel. Kids are expected to grow out of that sort of thing, not adults into it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:43:32 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21223 on: August 09, 2017, 02:42:26 PM »
Why the hell should they be fasting at all?

Children should be eating as healthily as possible, but fasting is not healthy, imo.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21224 on: August 09, 2017, 02:51:26 PM »
There were a few programmes on Radio 4 earlier this year talking about fasting and if I remember correctly, there were nopro-fasting conclusions.
I was pleased to hear the subject discussed clearly with no tip-toeing round facts because of political correctness.
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