Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3883174 times)

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21525 on: August 14, 2017, 11:48:35 AM »
Not in the context of Maximilian's quote

Of course that's what he thought butdoesn't mean he was right.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21526 on: August 14, 2017, 11:51:07 AM »
Gabriella,

Yeah right. So let’s try to summarise rather than indulge in endless tit-for-tat. So far as I can discern:

1. You think that there’s some relationship between the benefit of a belief and its objective truthfulness, only you don’t have an argument to take your from the former to the latter.

2. You think that something you call “God” does exist outside of stories in a book, albeit as a fact that can’t be demonstrated to be a fact.

3. You haven’t made an argument after all that takes you from deciding that something is possible to it being therefore “not difficult” to believe.

4. What you have said instead though is that, once the brake of impossibility is taken off, then it frees you to take a “leap of faith” rather than validates wherever the leap happens to land.

5. Despite where it lands being unverifiable, you think nonetheless that its associated rules (about what to eat and when for example) are authoritative.

6.You think that “supernatural” is a useful term to discuss the possibility that something does not “conform to the natural world”, apparently oblivious to the same line of reasoning leading to “four-sided triangles” being a useful way to discuss triangles that do not conform to the three-sided paradigm.

Incoherence is incoherence regardless of its object.

7. Finally, you resort to the “well if you can’t understand the special way logic works for religious claims” line when you essay the old, “You're just not accepting the way words are used in relation to religion” canard. Words are words – they don’t get to have special meanings just for you when you attach your pick of the available gods to them (a phenomenon I’m trying to name and get into the OED by the way: “Vladdism”).

I wish you well, but I think we’re done here.
Regarding your summary.

Point 1 is incorrect - I don't think that - see #21388

Point 3 - my statement was a description, not an argument.

Point 5 - restricting my diet is not a big deal to me. It's just an exercise in self-restraint that I don't lose any sleep over. It's a ritual that binds people together.

Point 6 - it's a Religion & Ethics Board so it is a place where the supernatural is discussed. So there needs to be a phrases that can be used to discuss it on this board.

Point 7 - Incorrect - I did not use the term "logic". 

I wish you well too.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21527 on: August 14, 2017, 11:51:16 AM »
I would start a thread but atheists around here seem to prefer the inquisitorial position and rarely answer questions which seek justification of their urban myths and platitudes.

Go for it.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21528 on: August 14, 2017, 11:52:39 AM »
NS,

Quote
Which again just seems to be whataboutery. Why mention another example of it?

No it isn't. Whataboutery seeks to diminish an issue by citing another example of it. I mentioned another example of it because I thought it when I saw the CS Lewis quote, forgot, was reminded of it when you mentioned it, so posted it then just as an "and here's another example of it over here". No big deal, and you can believe me or not as you wish but that's all it was.   
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God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21529 on: August 14, 2017, 11:53:01 AM »
Start a thread. It could be interesting if you respect it enough not to troll it into oblivion.
On that score past form isn't good, but it would certainly be an interesting thread (although surely the issue of finding or rather creating meaning has been covered before, though perhaps not all in one place).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21530 on: August 14, 2017, 11:54:19 AM »
On that score past form isn't good, but it would certainly be an interesting thread (although surely the issue of finding or rather creating meaning has been covered before, though perhaps not all in one place).

I think a thread dedicated to it would be good as in my recollection we've not had one.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21531 on: August 14, 2017, 11:55:15 AM »
Vladdo,

Quote
I would start a thread but atheists around here seem to prefer the inquisitorial position and rarely answer questions which seek justification of their urban myths and platitudes.

Jaw dropping irony.

Just draw dropping. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21532 on: August 14, 2017, 12:00:55 PM »
Vladdo,

Jaw dropping irony.

Just draw dropping.

Mine has just hit the floor, coming from Vlad that really takes the biscuit! ::)

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21533 on: August 14, 2017, 02:33:42 PM »
Apparently I am not alone in deducing that there is more to conscious human thought than mere chemical activity in the brain.  I recently came across this snippet from the CS Lewis essay entitled "Is Theology Poetry?".  He summarises my own logical deduction in just one sentence:

If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more  significance  than  the  sound  of  the  wind  in  the  trees.


http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/arts/lit/Theology=Poetry_CSL.pdf

From the larger context:
If, on the other hand, I swallow the scientific cosmology as a whole, then not only can I not fit in
Christianity, but I cannot even fit in science. If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more  significance  than  the  sound  of  the  wind  in  the  trees.

The waking world is judged more real because it can thus contain the dreaming world; the dreaming world is judged less real because it cannot contain the waking one. For the same reason  I  am  certain  that  in  passing  from  the  scientific  points  of  view  to  the  theological,  I  have  passed  from  dream  to  waking. Christian theology can fit in science, art, morality, and the sub Christian religions. The scientific point of view cannot fit in any of  these  things,  not  even  science  itself.  I  believe  in  Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.


Sounds totally gormless to me, what a daft post!

I'll bet if I was a castaway on a desert island with someone like you I would have so much confidence that while I'm doing all I can to survive at least I could feel secure in the knowledge that there was someone there I could rely on to keep on praying for a rescue.   

I can't and don't want to live in a airy fairy make believe world like your do Alan, you're welcome to all of it.

ippy

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21534 on: August 14, 2017, 02:46:15 PM »
It would be sad if AB and others who believe as he does, had a moment of clarity before death claimed them, and they discovered no god or afterlife awaited them.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21535 on: August 14, 2017, 03:48:54 PM »
Apparently I am not alone in deducing that there is more to conscious human thought than mere chemical activity in the brain.  I recently came across this snippet from the CS Lewis essay entitled "Is Theology Poetry?".  He summarises my own logical deduction in just one sentence:

If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more  significance  than  the  sound  of  the  wind  in  the  trees.

That is not deduction, it is just argument ad consequentiam with a grand dash of incredulity.  We could perhaps make some allowance for Mr Lewis given he lived long before our contemporary insights into mind/brain born of neuroscience research, but there is no such excuse for you  ;)

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21536 on: August 14, 2017, 05:18:26 PM »
Apparently I am not alone in deducing that there is more to conscious human thought than mere chemical activity in the brain.  I recently came across this snippet from the CS Lewis essay entitled "Is Theology Poetry?".  He summarises my own logical deduction in just one sentence:

If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more  significance  than  the  sound  of  the  wind  in  the  trees.


http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/arts/lit/Theology=Poetry_CSL.pdf

To be absolutely honest, I am able to find a great deal of meaning and significance in the sound of the wind in the trees, certainly more significance than I can with your own proselytising, for instance.

Quote
From the larger context:
If, on the other hand, I swallow the scientific cosmology as a whole, then not only can I not fit in
Christianity, but I cannot even fit in science. If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more  significance  than  the  sound  of  the  wind  in  the  trees.

The waking world is judged more real because it can thus contain the dreaming world; the dreaming world is judged less real because it cannot contain the waking one. For the same reason  I  am  certain  that  in  passing  from  the  scientific  points  of  view  to  the  theological,  I  have  passed  from  dream  to  waking. Christian theology can fit in science, art, morality, and the sub Christian religions. The scientific point of view cannot fit in any of  these  things,  not  even  science  itself.  I  believe  in  Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.



To be kind to C.S.Lewis here, I doubt if he knew of the great advances that have taken place in lucid dreaming, especially since 1978, which clearly links it to REM sleep. It does seem that we can be aware of our waking state in a dream world.


Of course it can be argued that Christian theology has some bearing on morality, art, and *religions, although my opinion is that these 'can fit' is far too strong a term, and seems to have rather supercilious overtones. One could equally make a case that certain strands of ancient Greek thought have just as much a bearing on these attributes. Why pick out Christian theology?
However, again to be kind to C. S. Lewis here, I suggest that he was unaware, I assume, that science(especially neuroscience) has significant things to say about the human mind and brain, and how such things as morality, art, beauty and *religions can be increasingly explained by science in its broadest sense, and by the disciplines of anthropology and psychology in particular.

Science is to do with examining and attempting to explain the natural world by use of agreed and accepted scientific methodology. Part of that natural world is how the human brain develops morality, for instance, and science has a great deal to say on this. The idea that science cannot fit into science is a meaningless statement. Would you say, for instance, that  the theological point of view doesn't fit into theology?

As far as the last sentence is concerned, I see it as rather a meaningless deepity. One could just as easily insert almost any belief in place of 'Christianity'. It is simply an assertion...which is probably the reason why you like it.

*I hesitate to use C.S. Lewis's choice of words here((sub Christian religions) as I find them demeaning, not that I am surprised because he showed his prejudices quite openly,(e.g. intolerance of homosexuality, attitude that women should know their place)



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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21537 on: August 14, 2017, 05:41:55 PM »
I think the words for that post from enki are 'feckin magisterial'

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21538 on: August 14, 2017, 08:43:25 PM »
That is not deduction, it is just argument ad consequentiam with a grand dash of incredulity.  We could perhaps make some allowance for Mr Lewis given he lived long before our contemporary insights into mind/brain born of neuroscience research, but there is no such excuse for you  ;)
The essence of what Lewis is saying is still valid.  If all events are sourced entirely from the basic reactions of atomic particles, and nothing else, then there can be no specific meaning in anything, since all is derived from inherently meaningless events.  Specific meaning can only be attributed by conscious interaction to manipulate events, but such conscious interaction is not possible in a materially deterministic scenario.  And there is nothing in neuroscience which can change this, unless neuroscience can discover the means of spiritually determined interaction.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21539 on: August 14, 2017, 08:45:44 PM »
The essence of what Lewis is saying is still valid.  If all events are sourced entirely from the basic reactions of atomic particles, and nothing else, then there can be no specific meaning in anything, since all is derived from inherently meaningless events.  Specific meaning can only be attributed by conscious interaction to manipulate events, but such conscious interaction is not possible in a materially deterministic scenario.  And there is nothing in neuroscience which can change this, unless neuroscience can discover the means of spiritually determined interaction.

You do know just repeating the same fallacies doesn't make them not fallacies? Because that's all you have done. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 08:50:48 PM by Nearly Sane »

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21540 on: August 14, 2017, 08:50:32 PM »
The essence of what Lewis is saying is still valid.  If all events are sourced entirely from the basic reactions of atomic particles, and nothing else, then there can be no specific meaning in anything, since all is derived from inherently meaningless events.  Specific meaning can only be attributed by conscious interaction to manipulate events, but such conscious interaction is not possible in a materially deterministic scenario.  And there is nothing in neuroscience which can change this, unless neuroscience can discover the means of spiritually determined interaction.

Alan: with the best will in the world the isn't just fallacious tripe - it's embarrassing fallacious tripe (comprising multiple fallacies).

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21541 on: August 14, 2017, 08:55:46 PM »
The essence of what Lewis is saying is still valid.  If all events are sourced entirely from the basic reactions of atomic particles, and nothing else, then there can be no specific meaning in anything, since all is derived from inherently meaningless events. ...

Lewis lacked our understanding of emergence, among other things.  Meaning perhaps emerges from 'inherently meaningless' constituents just as I, a living being, am made of inherently unliving particles. carbon, oxygen, nitrogen etc.  Think it through.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21542 on: August 14, 2017, 11:05:27 PM »
Lewis lacked our understanding of emergence, among other things.  Meaning perhaps emerges from 'inherently meaningless' constituents just as I, a living being, am made of inherently unliving particles. carbon, oxygen, nitrogen etc.  Think it through.
There is no scientific definition of meaning.  We can all interpret meaning in a written or spoken word, but in scientific terms it is just ink stains on paper or vibrating air molecules.  And where does meaning exist in a material brain?  Certain patterns of brain activity may well represent some form of meaning, but only on being interpreted.  I put it to you that meaning does not, indeed cannot exist outside of human conscious perception.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21543 on: August 14, 2017, 11:17:26 PM »
There is no scientific definition of meaning.  We can all interpret meaning in a written or spoken word, but in scientific terms it is just ink stains on paper or vibrating air molecules.  And where does meaning exist in a material brain?  Certain patterns of brain activity may well represent some form of meaning, but only on being interpreted.  I put it to you that meaning does not, indeed cannot exist outside of human conscious perception.

Tell that to my dog then. He's looking hard at me right now, and I am pretty certain that this look is full of meaning. So, without further ado, I shall close down the computer and take him for his nightly walk. Incidentally we both keep a look out for foxes on the way. Goodnight all. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21544 on: August 15, 2017, 06:26:29 AM »
There is no scientific definition of meaning.  We can all interpret meaning in a written or spoken word, but in scientific terms it is just ink stains on paper or vibrating air molecules.  And where does meaning exist in a material brain?  Certain patterns of brain activity may well represent some form of meaning, but only on being interpreted.  I put it to you that meaning does not, indeed cannot exist outside of human conscious perception.

I think that is utter blinkered nonsense.  As has been pointed out innumerable times cognitive perception and basic common emotional states exist throughout the animal kingdom in varying forms; and like all characteristics, humans have acquired this capacity and furthered it through inheritance given we share common ancestry with every other creature.  Humans have developed greater capacities for abstraction perhaps but we have only been able to do that by building on the capacities that were already there in other primates.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21545 on: August 15, 2017, 08:40:33 AM »
I think that is utter blinkered nonsense.  As has been pointed out innumerable times cognitive perception and basic common emotional states exist throughout the animal kingdom in varying forms; and like all characteristics, humans have acquired this capacity and furthered it through inheritance given we share common ancestry with every other creature.  Humans have developed greater capacities for abstraction perhaps but we have only been able to do that by building on the capacities that were already there in other primates.

I reckon that when humans first emerged their cognitive perception wasn't nearly so fine tuned as it is today.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21546 on: August 15, 2017, 11:43:26 AM »
It would be sad if AB and others who believe as he does, had a moment of clarity before death claimed them, and they discovered no god or afterlife awaited them.
A moment of clarity?
Kind of implies that there is some certainty out there that religious believers are unaware of. What is it? That way, I don't need to wait until I'm on my deathbed, lol

they discovered
What is waiting to be discovered? Can you enlighten us ... or do we have to wait for the book?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21547 on: August 15, 2017, 12:16:16 PM »
A moment of clarity?
Kind of implies that there is some certainty out there that religious believers are unaware of. What is it? That way, I don't need to wait until I'm on my deathbed, lol

they discovered
What is waiting to be discovered? Can you enlighten us ... or do we have to wait for the book?

There is no certainty a god or afterlife exists, it is only a belief.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21548 on: August 15, 2017, 12:44:59 PM »
I think that is utter blinkered nonsense.  As has been pointed out innumerable times cognitive perception and basic common emotional states exist throughout the animal kingdom in varying forms; and like all characteristics, humans have acquired this capacity and furthered it through inheritance given we share common ancestry with every other creature.  Humans have developed greater capacities for abstraction perhaps but we have only been able to do that by building on the capacities that were already there in other primates.
As I have pointed out numerous times, animal behaviour is predictable and can be easily explained in physical terms of programmed instinct and learnt experience.  However, if you persist in claiming that animals have the same spiritual properties as human beings I will not argue with you as it is an irrelevance in the case I put forward for human spirituality.

Human conscious awareness perceives meaning, which in itself can't be explained in terms of externally perceived reaction.  Meaning only occurs in our conscious awareness, and we have the ability to express this meaning in various external ways, but the external expressions are just representative of the perceived meaning within our conscious awareness.  And I repeat that there is no scientific definition of meaning, because meaning is a spiritual property of the conscious awareness of our human soul.

Meaning and purpose do not exist in a material universe driven entirely by physically determined events.  Our physical universe can only do reactions, which define no meaning or purpose.

This all makes the opening words of John's gospel so profoundly relevant -

In the beginning was the word ...

The word introduces meaning into this universe, because word represents meaning.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 12:52:16 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #21549 on: August 15, 2017, 01:04:24 PM »
As I have pointed out numerous times, animal behaviour is predictable and can be easily explained in physical terms of programmed instinct and learnt experience.  However, if you persist in claiming that animals have the same spiritual properties as human beings I will not argue with you as it is an irrelevance in the case I put forward for human spirituality.

Human conscious awareness perceives meaning, which in itself can't be explained in terms of externally perceived reaction.  Meaning only occurs in our conscious awareness, and we have the ability to express this meaning in various external ways, but the external expressions are just representative of the perceived meaning within our conscious awareness.  And I repeat that there is no scientific definition of meaning, because meaning is a spiritual property of the conscious awareness of our human soul.

Meaning and purpose do not exist in a material universe driven entirely by physically determined events.  Our physical universe can only do reactions, which define no meaning or purpose.

This all makes the opening words of John's gospel so profoundly relevant -

In the beginning was the word ...

The word introduces meaning into this universe, because word represents meaning.

OMG.

You are so right.

Because in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was presented by a man called Terry Christian.

It's all there if you are only open to making shit fit with your own word view the Truth.