Searching for GOD...

[Maeght]

This highlights the naive argument that God can't exist if He allows so much suffering and evil.

I don't think that is the argument. Rather people are saying howcan Christians refer to God as being the God of love if he allows suffering, especially of children.

[Shaker]

I don't think that is the argument. Rather people are saying howcan Christians refer to God as being the God of love if he allows suffering, especially of children.

... and of course the well-known riddle of Epicurus remains unanswered because it's unanswerable.

[Shaker]

We do not know the mind of God

How curious then that your church - like pretty well all of them come to that - claim exactly this.

but we do know that everything comes from Him

What a pity that your holiday has done nothing to improve your abject ignorance of the difference between belief and knowledge.

[floo]

Only the other day I saw a quote to the effect that if you can read the Bible and still seriously maintain that the God depicted therein is a God of love, you're an almost superhumanly poor judge of character.

Too right.

[Alan Burns]

Well, it rather goes against the grain to say this - and I'll have to grit my teeth slightly - but welcome back, AB! Glad you had a good holiday. Such a pity you headed into a church instead of the London Assembly, or the Natural History Museum or something!
This thread has been static recently!

Thanks for the welcome Susan.

During our holiday we had gorgeous weather, cycled through beautiful countryside, visited several magnificent French Châteaux and sampled superb French cuisine every evening.

But the highlight of the holiday was the Mass service in Soho.  Once you have found God, you may well experience occasional glimpses of heavenly joy which surpass all earthly pleasures.  I wish I could share this experience in words with those who have not yet found God, but all I can do is encourage non believers to take a step in faith and discover it for themselves.

[Sebastian Toe]

.....take a step in faith and discover it for themselves.

How, exactly?

[floo]

Thanks for the welcome Susan.

During our holiday we had gorgeous weather, cycled through beautiful countryside, visited several magnificent French Châteaux and sampled superb French cuisine every evening.

But the highlight of the holiday was the Mass service in Soho.  Once you have found God, you may well experience occasional glimpses of heavenly joy which surpass all earthly pleasures.  I wish I could share this experience in words with those who have not yet found God, but all I can do is encourage non believers to take a step in faith and discover it for themselves.

Susan is right, it is good to see you back, even though we will never see eye to eye on matters of religion.

[Shaker]

I wish I could share this experience in words with those who have not yet found God

Then either find the time and space in which to try harder - without your usual array of fallacies, obviously - , or give it up as a bad job.

all I can do is encourage non believers to take a step in faith and discover it for themselves.

In other words, for non-believers no longer to be non-believers, for absolutely no reason whatever.

[Robbie]

Thanks for the welcome Susan.

During our holiday we had gorgeous weather, cycled through beautiful countryside, visited several magnificent French Châteaux and sampled superb French cuisine every evening.

But the highlight of the holiday was the Mass service in Soho.  Once you have found God, you may well experience occasional glimpses of heavenly joy which surpass all earthly pleasures.  I wish I could share this experience in words with those who have not yet found God, but all I can do is encourage non believers to take a step in faith and discover it for themselves.

Sounds idyllic Alan but wish you would post on threads other than this one that gets nowhere!

[Alan Burns]

In other words, for non-believers no longer to be non-believers, for absolutely no reason whatever.

No -
I would suggest that the eternal salvation of the human soul can't be dismissed as "absolutely no reason whatever".

[Shaker]

No -
I would suggest that the eternal salvation of the human soul can't be dismissed as "absolutely no reason whatever".

It can be if there's no truth in it, and I've been furnished with not a single reason to think that there is.

[Alan Burns]

This highlights the naive argument that God can't exist if He allows so much suffering and evil.


I don't think that is the argument. Rather people are saying howcan Christians refer to God as being the God of love if he allows suffering, especially of children.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I see this earth as a battleground between good and evil, and in any battle there will inevitably be casualties.  I do not see the whole picture - no one does.  But the evidence for God's love lies primarily in the life of Jesus:
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.…

[Shaker]

[...] the evidence for God's love lies primarily in the life of Jesus

N.B. Other religions are available.

To repeat #21699:

Only the other day I saw a quote to the effect that if you can read the Bible and still seriously maintain that the God depicted therein is a God of love, you're an almost superhumanly poor judge of character.

[Alan Burns]

It can be if there's no truth in it, and I've been furnished with not a single reason to think that there is.

I have tried throughout this thread to show the evidence for the human soul, and in doing so, non believers such as Torridon have had to admit that without the spiritual interaction from the soul, we are entirely driven by uncontrollable chains of physical cause and effect which render any concept of freedom to choose or drive our own thoughts to be an illusion.

And I maintain that the evidence for us all to exercise our freedom lies in the postings on this forum.

[Shaker]

I have tried throughout this thread to show the evidence for the human soul, and in doing so, non believers such as Torridon have had to admit that without the spiritual interaction from the soul, we are entirely driven by uncontrollable chains of physical cause and effect which render any concept of freedom to choose or drive our own thoughts to be an illusion.

Are you sure about that?

And I maintain that the evidence for us all to exercise our freedom lies in the postings on this forum.

You can maintain whatever you like. In fact you do so. But if you want to be taken seriously by rational people, until and unless you come up with some evidence for your claims, you'll remain occasionally mildly amusing but mostly pitiable white noise and nothing more.

[Nearly Sane]

I have tried throughout this thread to show the evidence for the human soul, and in doing so, non believers such as Torridon have had to admit that without the spiritual interaction from the soul, we are entirely driven by uncontrollable chains of physical cause and effect which render any concept of freedom to choose or drive our own thoughts to be an illusion.

And I maintain that the evidence for us all to exercise our freedom lies in the postings on this forum.

In this thread it has been demonstrated and admitted by Alan Burns that he has no logical coherent definition of free will, and therefore his entire case has been admitted by Alan Burns to be meaningless.

[Maeght]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I see this earth as a battleground between good and evil, and in any battle there will inevitably be casualties.  I do not see the whole picture - no one does.  But the evidence for God's love lies primarily in the life of Jesus:
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.…

Never understood that. If Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven to sit with God how is that giving his son? How is becoming incarnate on earth for a short time, suffering fora short period andthen dying before going back to heaven be a sign of love? Don't get it.

[Maeght]

I have tried throughout this thread to show the evidence for the human soul,

And failed.

and in doing so, non believers such as Torridon have had to admit that without the spiritual interaction from the soul, we are entirely driven by uncontrollable chains of physical cause and effect which render any concept of freedom to choose or drive our own thoughts to be an illusion.

You make it sound as if you have forced some shocking admission out of non-believers whereas I would imagine most would have said something similar from day one

And I maintain that the evidence for us all to exercise our freedom lies in the postings on this forum.

Yes you've repeatedly said this but it doesn't demonstrate thatat all.

[Alan Burns]

In this thread it has been demonstrated and admitted by Alan Burns that he has no logical coherent definition of free will, and therefore his entire case has been admitted by Alan Burns to be meaningless.

I have admitted no such thing.
There is no physical definition if free will, which implies that our freedom to choose is derived from the non physical - the spiritual power of the conscious will of the human soul to interact with our physical brain.

[Nearly Sane]

I have admitted no such thing.
There is no physical definition if free will, which implies that our freedom to choose is derived from the non physical - the spiritual power of the conscious will of the human soul to interact with our physical brain.

oh yes you have. If you think that presenting your impression of what other people say as a fact is ok, as you did, why object to me presenting your arguments by my impression as a fact? Surely that would be a tad hypocritical?

[Alan Burns]

Never understood that. If Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven to sit with God how is that giving his son? How is becoming incarnate on earth for a short time, suffering fora short period andthen dying before going back to heaven be a sign of love? Don't get it.

Jesus left us with the power of the Holy Spirit, as demonstrated at Pentecost and enabled His small band of disciples to spread the Good News of Salvation - which eventually reached every corner of the earth.

[Nearly Sane]

Jesus left us with the power of the Holy Spirit, as demonstrated at Pentecost and enabled His small band of disciples to spread the Good News of Salvation - which eventually reached every corner of the earth.

Murdering as it went

[Maeght]

Jesus left us with the power of the Holy Spirit, as demonstrated at Pentecost and enabled His small band of disciples to spread the Good News of Salvation - which eventually reached every corner of the earth.

That doesn't explain what I wrote about.

[Nearly Sane]

That doesn't explain what I wrote about.

Reading what people have written hasn't ever been a success criterion for the bot referred to as Alan Burns. Its programmer is more interested in just replying.

[Maeght]

Reading what people have written hasn't ever been a success criterion for the bot referred to as Alan Burns. Its programmer is more interested in just replying.