Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Oh dear another evolutionist trying to suggest that evolution causes bad things.
It can only be a matter of time before such persons declare religion to be a virus.

In light of the fact that Susan never even mentioned evolution I have to assume that you're responding to some post other than the one you've (accidentally?) quoted.

[Alan Burns]

Becsuse it is unique to you i.e. personal.

But if you discount the spiritual nature of the human soul, the "you" just becomes part of the continuum of this material universe controlled entirely by natural forces - there can be nothing personal unless there is a separate entity of control which is "you".

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In light of the fact that Susan never even mentioned evolution I have to assume that you're responding to some post other than the one you've (accidentally?) quoted.

Er, that would be a 'linguistic' evolutionist Shakes. In Susan's case that A probably non existent document about a possibly non existent Jesus can somehow probably mutate and evolve over the years into the Gospel we know today. A weird conjecture I think you'll agree but absolutely what Susan's post suggests IMO the situation to have been.

What I don't understand is that if such a thesis is applied to non Christian historical literature.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But if you discount the spiritual nature of the human soul, the "you" just becomes part of the continuum of this material universe controlled entirely by natural forces - there can be nothing personal unless there is a separate entity of control which is "you".

Just to reiterate their problem. Explaining consciousness in an unconscious universe without being caught defining consciousness as a swish version of er, unconsciousness.

[Alan Burns]

I don't believe you. The sheer amount of time and energy you put into repeating your mantra (free will ... spiritual soul ... biological machines ... uncontrolled forces of nature ... yadda yadda yadda) says otherwise.

I do not enjoy posting on this thread.  I would much prefer to share comments and points of view on some of the many less controversial threads on this forum.  I have tried on several occasions to call it a day and stop these posts, but I feel drawn to share what I sincerely believe to be the truth about our spiritual nature and thus help to open the door for those who want to discover the true purpose behind our existence.

No you don't; that is what you believe because you prefer it to be the case.

But you use the terms "believe" and "prefer" which must relate to something within me which has the power consciously control this belief and preference.  If I am entirely under the control of natural forces, you are accusing nature itself of these beliefs and preferences.

[Shaker]

I do not enjoy posting on this thread.  I would much prefer to share comments and points of view on some of the many less controversial threads on this forum.  I have tried on several occasions to call it a day and stop these posts, but I feel drawn to share what I sincerely believe to be the truth about our spiritual nature and thus help to open the door for those who want to discover the true purpose behind our existence.

You keep coming out with this sort of hand-waving, airy-fairy verbiage but when challenged as to what effect your preaching has, on the exceedingly rare occasions you actually answer the question you do no more than appeal to some possible, maybe, might-be people looking in who might take seriously a word you say.

I suppose you have to do this since none of the real as opposed to potential people who are actually here do.

But you use the terms "believe" and "prefer" which must relate to something within me which has the power consciously control this belief and preference. If I am entirely under the control of natural forces, you are accusing nature itself of these beliefs and preferences.

No. I like hot and spicy foods, and hate beetroot and courgettes. I like late 19th/20th century British composers and am uninterested in sport. I love autumn and winter and dislike hot weather. I like 8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown and am uninterested in soaps. And so on. These are preferences but not ones which I have chosen. I don't choose to like what I like and dislike what I dislike; these things simply are. I can't choose to be interested in tennis any more than I can choose to be six inches taller.

[Sebastian Toe]

But if you discount the spiritual nature of the human soul, the "you" just becomes part of the continuum of this material universe controlled entirely by natural forces - there can be nothing personal unless there is a separate entity of control which is "you".

Nope. All you need is a subconscious which drives " you" and then "you" have the illusion of "free will" and "person".
It s apparent to me that is what happens I just don't  understand why you cannot see it yourself.

[floo]

I do not enjoy posting on this thread.  I would much prefer to share comments and points of view on some of the many less controversial threads on this forum.  I have tried on several occasions to call it a day and stop these posts, but I feel drawn to share what I sincerely believe to be the truth about our spiritual nature and thus help to open the door for those who want to discover the true purpose behind our existence.But you use the terms "believe" and "prefer" which must relate to something within me which has the power consciously control this belief and preference.  If I am entirely under the control of natural forces, you are accusing nature itself of these beliefs and preferences.

Whatever is drawing you to keep posting on this thread isn't doing you any favours at all. You are not making any positive impression on us non believers, just the opposite is true, imo.

[Alan Burns]

No. I like hot and spicy foods, and hate beetroot and courgettes. I like late 19th/20th century British composers and am uninterested in sport. I love autumn and winter and dislike hot weather. I like 8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown and am uninterested in soaps. And so on. These are preferences but not ones which I have chosen. I don't choose to like what I like and dislike what I dislike; these things simply are. I can't choose to be interested in tennis any more than I can choose to be six inches taller.

I agree that we can't choose our likes and dislikes - they are defined within the physical make up of our brain/body functionality in which we have defined reactions and no conscious choice.

But when considering the concept of belief and personal credulity there is more than mere physical reaction involved.  We do not have to like God in order to believe in Him.  My personal incredulity or credulity may not be what I wish, it is based upon what I see to be the truth.  I have the freedom to choose to ignore these beliefs if I so wish, and just do what I enjoy doing.  But I have freely chosen to to be a witness to what I sincerely believe to be the truth.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree that we can't choose our likes and dislikes - they are defined within the physical make up of our brain/body functionality in which we have defined reactions and no conscious choice.

But when considering the concept of belief and personal credulity there is more than mere physical reaction involved.  We do not have to like God in order to believe in Him.  My personal incredulity or credulity may not be what I wish, it is based upon what I see to be the truth.  I have the freedom to choose to ignore these beliefs if I so wish, and just do what I enjoy doing.  But I have freely chosen to to be a witness to what I truly believe to be the truth.

You, as so often, use a word like 'mete' as a specious argument. If we cannot choose beliefs and your god will punish people for not believing in him then once again you have portrayed your god as a psychopathic thug.

[floo]

You, as so often, use a word like 'mete' as a specious argument. If we cannot choose beliefs and your god will punish people for not believing in him then once again you have portrayed your god as a psychopathic thug.

Exactly, so AB is not portraying his god in a very good light.

[ippy]

Alright Ippy....... What's the most rational thing you think you or your ilk are saying on the Religionethics forum....and what is the rationale behind it?

Just trying to open the eyes of people like yourself to how deluded you are, there was an excuse for the ignorance of scribes to bronze age goat herders, what's your excuse Vlad?

By the way I note one of your favourite ploys again Vlad, diverting away anything that might have given you the slightest impression that it might be a question you have no intention of answering.

ippy

[Shaker]

I agree that we can't choose our likes and dislikes - they are defined within the physical make up of our brain/body functionality in which we have defined reactions and no conscious choice.

Smashing. So where does that leave your much vaunted free will? Why doesn't it seem to apply elsewhere?

[Maeght]

You may look upon it as a short term loan.
I see it as God's gift of eternal salvation.

But how is it 'giving' his only son?

[torridon]

But when considering the concept of belief and personal credulity there is more than mere physical reaction involved.  We do not have to like God in order to believe in Him.  My personal incredulity or credulity may not be what I wish, it is based upon what I see to be the truth.  I have the freedom to choose to ignore these beliefs if I so wish, and just do what I enjoy doing.  But I have freely chosen to to be a witness to what I truly believe to be the truth.

And it seems you have chosen to ignore the bulk of what we have learned from research, and also elementary principles of logical reasoning.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just trying to open the eyes of people like yourself to how deluded you are, there was an excuse for the ignorance of scribes to bronze age goat herders, what's your excuse Vlad?

By the way I note one of your favourite ploys again Vlad, diverting away anything that might have given you the slightest impression that it might be a question you have no intention of answering.

ippy

OK Ippy How deluded am I? plus justification please........ something lacking so far.

Bronze age religion and philosophy are 'ignorance' are they? Well, I look forward to your justification for calling Plato 'ignorant'.

Let me put you straight a bit. God is not an old man with a beard or a million fingers.

I'm trying to desperately hang on to a belief that you have my interests at heart though.

[Alan Burns]

Smashing. So where does that leave your much vaunted free will? Why doesn't it seem to apply elsewhere?

Our likes and dislikes are not in the same category as beliefs.
As I explained in the second bit of the post you quoted:
But when considering the concept of belief and personal credulity there is more than mere physical reaction involved.  We do not have to like God in order to believe in Him.  My personal incredulity or credulity may not be what I wish, it is based upon what I see to be the truth.  I have the freedom to choose to ignore these beliefs if I so wish, and just do what I enjoy doing.  But I have freely chosen to to be a witness to what I sincerely believe to be the truth.

[Alan Burns]

And it seems you have chosen to ignore the bulk of what we have learned from research, and also elementary principles of logical reasoning.

I am not ignoring scientific research.  I am drawing attention to its limitations.  And in doing so I am demonstrating my ability to freely choose to do this.  I am fully aware that any scientific model of physical brain functionality will inevitably rule out any concept of freedom.  The fact that we have the ability to make conscious choices is evidence that there is more than observable physical brain activity involved.

[Shaker]

Our likes and dislikes are not in the same category as beliefs.

Why not? Given that just now (#21779) you were happy to include 'belief' and 'preference' together in the same sentence?

As I explained in the second bit of the post you quoted:
But when considering the concept of belief and personal credulity there is more than mere physical reaction involved

Oh dear. Assertion rather than explanation. So it goes.

[Sebastian Toe]

The fact that we have the ability to make conscious choices is evidence that there is more than observable physical brain activity involved.

The fact that we make subconscious choices which appear to be concious choices and thus give the illusion of "fee will" seems to be beyond your limits of powers of reasoning.

[Shaker]

The fact that we make subconscious choices which appear to be concious choices and thus give the illusion of "fee will" seems to be beyond your limits of powers of reasoning.

And they're not exactly the talk of the town at the best of times.

[Alan Burns]

The fact that we make subconscious choices which appear to be conscious choices and thus give the illusion of "fee will" seems to be beyond your limits of powers of reasoning.

I witness to the reality of my existence, in which I perceive my ability to make conscious choices which are not pre determined by nature, but determined by my God given gift of free will.

[ippy]

OK Ippy How deluded am I? plus justification please........ something lacking so far.

Bronze age religion and philosophy are 'ignorance' are they? Well, I look forward to your justification for calling Plato 'ignorant'.

Let me put you straight a bit. God is not an old man with a beard or a million fingers.

I'm trying to desperately hang on to a belief that you have my interests at heart though.

Diversionary to the end, perhaps read the words I actually wrote, if you feel you have to say something; I'm sure English can't be your first language?

ippy

[Sebastian Toe]

I witness to the reality of my existence, in which I perceive my ability to make conscious choices which are not pre determined by nature, but determined by my God given gift of free will.

And if proof of my previous statement was needed, you come along and present it to order.
Cheers.

[SusanDoris]

As you  may know, the solar system has a limited life. In about 5 billion years the sun will become a supernova and the solar system will no longer have a planet Earth, let alone anything living on it. What do you think the God you believe in will do then?!