Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3870921 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22025 on: September 11, 2017, 09:23:57 AM »
Your idea of souls is good enough for most people for most of the time I think; a simple, intuitive model.  Similarly, the layman in the street does not worry his head about quantum gravity or the curvature of spacetime.  He just needs to know that heavy things are, errm, heavy and they always fall downwards.  That wouldn't do if you were planning to put a satellite into orbit though. Likewise, the simple idea of souls has run out of utility for anyone needing more in depth insight.
Reduction though limits vocabulary. You end up stating how great scientific reductionism is by reference to other scientific discoveries which carry an assumed sense of value and achievement. It's all in danger of becoming a self nourishing delusion.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22026 on: September 11, 2017, 09:27:15 AM »
Reduction though limits vocabulary. You end up stating how great scientific reductionism is by reference to other scientific discoveries which carry an assumed sense of value and achievement. It's all in danger of becoming a self nourishing delusion.

Have you given up taking prescription medicine then, if you are worried about the science becoming a self nourishing delusion ?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22027 on: September 11, 2017, 09:28:51 AM »
If you want to know how something works, you need to take it apart. 
Behold the reductionist prescription for humanity.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22028 on: September 11, 2017, 09:33:40 AM »
AB,

Quote
No, I have shared what I believe to be divine revelation.

Which is fine if you like that kind of thing, but the difference between you is that what you believe is a matter of faith, whereas what torri (and I, and Eagelman, and people who actually work in the field) believe is a matter of evidence. And the problem with that is that faith beliefs are epistemically worthless, whereas as evidence-based beliefs are not.

What science (and logic) does is to work bottom up. Slowly, tentatively, provisionally it examines the world and constructs explanatory, functionally useable models that provide solutions that cohere with inter-subjective experience: the ball will bounce regardless of the opinions of the people who drop it.

What faith does on the other hand is to work top down. It starts with “the universe”, then posits a “God” to make it all work, then constructs a series of sub-routines (“soul”, “original sin” etc) to try to explain away the contradictions in the big picture claims, albeit sub-routines that themselves are beset with contradictions of their own.

In short, torri deals in knowledge; you deal in guesses.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22029 on: September 11, 2017, 09:34:23 AM »
Have you given up taking prescription medicine then,
 

see Reply #22021

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22030 on: September 11, 2017, 09:41:23 AM »
Liar Boy,

Quote
I'm afraid I am a holist…

Only though in the sense that your claims are full of holes…

Quote
…and you quite patently are a reductionist.

As you’ve been corrected on this many times, I can only conclude that you’re deliberately lying again here. Yet again: to be a reductionist, you have to establish first that there’s something that’s reduced from.

Are you a reductionist for failing to take into account my leprechaunism?

Why not?   

Quote
There is nothing wrong with reductionism in it's place…

As you seem willfully to have no idea what “reductionism” means though, what value has your opinion on the matter?

Quote
…but it is never going to be the great journey into humanity that you seek to suggest.

And he finishes with the lie of the straw man. Where exactly did torri do that?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22031 on: September 11, 2017, 09:44:43 AM »
Why, clearly I must have a conscious being inside me, and so the implication would be that conscious being must have a conscious being inside it, .....
Why? Surely one conscious entity is sufficient to drive a machine?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22032 on: September 11, 2017, 09:45:15 AM »
Liar Boy,

Only though in the sense that your claims are full of holes…

As you’ve been corrected on this many times, I can only conclude that you’re deliberately lying again here. Yet again: to be a reductionist, you have to establish first that there’s something that’s reduced from.

Are you a reductionist for failing to take into account my leprechaunism?

Why not?   

As you seem willfully to have no idea what “reductionism” means though, what value has your opinion on the matter?

And he finishes with the lie of the straw man. Where exactly did torri do that?
Advice. Stop turdpolishing.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22033 on: September 11, 2017, 09:51:03 AM »
Liar Boy,

Quote
Reduction though limits vocabulary.

Don’t be silly. What “vocabulary” do you think “reductionism” limits. What word do you think you cannot use when speaking to a reductionist?

What reductionism actually does is to consider only that which is necessary for a explanation – ie, the components of a system and their interactions. You can posit “God”, Poseidon, Colin the Leprechaun or anything else you like, but you cannot accuse someone of reducing from them until and unless you establish them first.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22034 on: September 11, 2017, 09:52:52 AM »
Liar Boy,

Quote
Advice. Stop turdpolishing.

Evasion noted.

Advice: if you can't process being caught out in your lying, stop lying.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22035 on: September 11, 2017, 09:55:02 AM »
If you want to know how something works, you need to take it apart.  If you don't want to know, then carry on regardless, that just means you're disinterested.
I am sure I am as fascinated as you, Torri, about how this amazing body of ours works.  The difference is that I can look in wonder and awe at God's creativity.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22036 on: September 11, 2017, 10:11:28 AM »
AB,

Quote
The difference is that I can look in wonder and awe at God's creativity.

Not that you care, but that's called the fallacy of reification. If you want to claim to look any way you like at a god's "creativity", then you need to demonstrate to begin with that there is a god to be looked at at all. 

And sadly, your personal faith on the matter is worthless for that purpose.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22037 on: September 11, 2017, 10:11:47 AM »
Liar Boy,

Don’t be silly. What “vocabulary” do you think “reductionism” limits. What word do you think you cannot use when speaking to a reductionist?

What reductionism actually does is to consider only that which is necessary for a explanation – ie, the components of a system and their interactions. You can posit “God”, Poseidon, Colin the Leprechaun or anything else you like, but you cannot accuse someone of reducing from them until and unless you establish them first.
You need to consult the definitions on Wikipedia.
As always antitheists here have slipped  it seems from the methodology into the philosophy. i.e. when reductionism takes what reductionists think is necessary for an explanation. And lets face it what kind of explanation of the self can ''a set of neural arrays working in synchrony be''....particularly when you are faced with no reason that neural arrays working in synchrony should produce 'self'. You seem to have have missed the leaps of faith and assumptions Torridon makes.

Since you bring up Leprechauns and reductionist principles. You are noted for your reluctance ever to analyse what a Leprechaun is. Let me help you here. Small Irish chap in little green suit in the proximity of rainbows. That necessary detail is often missing from your employment of them.

 Have a nice day.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22038 on: September 11, 2017, 10:31:29 AM »
Liar Boy,

Quote
You need to consult the definitions on Wikipedia.

Knock yourself out – tell us what it says that you think contradicts what I’ve told you it says.

You might want to remember though that the last time you tried the “look at Wiki/Rationalwiki” line it blew up badly in your face.

Either way, are you seriously suggesting that to be “reductionist” in the pejorative sense you attempt you don’t have to trouble with demonstrating whatever it is that you think’s been reduced from?

Seriously?

Quote
As always antitheists…

The fallacy of judgmental language. What you’re trying to say here is atheists

One of your favourite lies that one.

Quote
…here have slipped  it seems from the methodology into the philosophy. i.e. when reductionism takes what reductionists think is necessary for an explanation.

Oh dear. There is no “philosophy”: either the explanation works without your (or anyone else’s) additional speculations or it doesn’t. And when the explanation is incomplete, then it’s for you to show that your conjectures fill the gap – a big problem for the “it’s magic innit” of “God”.

Quote
And lets face it what kind of explanation of the self can ''a set of neural arrays working in synchrony be''....

It’s a kind of explanation that accords with the evidence, however much your personal incredulity prevents you from seeing it.

Quote
…particularly when you are faced with no reason that neural arrays working in synchrony should produce 'self'.

Ah, the reference point error. You haven’t tried that one for a while. Why should there be “a reason”? What makes you think that the fact of self is purposive rather than an outcome that wasn’t intended at the outset?

Quote
You seem to have have missed the leaps of faith and assumptions Torridon makes.

There aren’t any – your mistake here comes from your fundamental inability to grasp the underlying logic (see above). Presumably then if you won the lottery this week you’d be asking for the “reason” that Camelot picked you?   

Quote
Since you bring up Leprechauns and reductionist principles. You are noted for your reluctance ever to analyse what a Leprechaun is. Let me help you here. Small Irish chap in little green suit in the proximity of rainbows. That necessary detail is often missing from your employment of them.

But not as noted as you are noted for failing utterly to grasp that the characteristics I attach to leprechauns and that you attach to “God” are entirely irrelevant to the point – namely that any argument that leads equally to each of them is probably a bad argument.

Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

Quote
Have a nice day.

It’d be nicer still if you stopped lying.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 10:40:57 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5811
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22039 on: September 11, 2017, 10:51:00 AM »
I would draw a distinction between the 'me' that counsellors and psychologists deal with - the habits, the beliefs, the prejudices, the skills; these relate to neural assemblies that are largely stable and strongly connected.  Then there is the 'me' of the moment, the recipient of sensory information, the taker of decisions, right here, right now.  That 'me' arises out of the synchrony of neural activity in the present moment, and it dies away as the synchrony subsides such as when we go to sleep. I quite liked his analogy of the drummers coming into step; I like to think of it as a symphony orchestra - when you go to a concert, just before the start there is a general low level random cacophony as the instrumentalists are tuning up and practising difficult passages.  Then the conductor raises his baton and draws forth a wonderful rich coordinated sound that means things to the audience.  This is like the moment we wake up and 'me' emerges from the general low level neural activity once more, drawing meaning out of the noise.  Consciousness is a most wonderful thing that nature has produced, and we all take it for granted, every day.
Yes, that is how most see it, as a 'self' which only exists when there is inner activity and the mind reassembles all the mental forms and forces which the self identifies with, and then, what appears to be an emergence occurs.  You last sentence emphasises this, where 'we' (usually a reasoning rationalising mind which 'we' identify with) declares consciousness as an objective 'wonderful thing' that has been produced by something called 'nature'.  An alternative view is that 'consciousness' is the 'I' which is always present and sleep is simply a time when it is detached from its connection with the external and becomes involved with internal 'housekeeping' or healing.  It temporarily loses its 'self' centredness.  This is what possibly happens in meditation, the narrowly focused 'self' seems to disappear and consciousness appears to expand.

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5811
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22040 on: September 11, 2017, 10:54:02 AM »
ekim,

Doesn't work. You can be open to the possibility of conjectures that are coherent - an orbiting teapot for example - but an "indifferent observer" that's neither deterministic nor random is the logical equivalent of a four-sided triangle: it's incoherent on its own terms, and therefore not possibility apt. It's just noise. 

That's everyone (though the "false" is debatable).
'Indifferent observer' was meant as a possibility along the lines of being a still conscious receptive state, like a still lake which is indifferent to whatever disturbs its surface.  Its determinism only arises when associated with a form or force.  Perhaps in the terms of an illogical four sided triangle, its fourth side is the inside. ;)

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22041 on: September 11, 2017, 10:54:33 AM »
I am sure I am as fascinated as you, Torri, about how this amazing body of ours works.  The difference is that I can look in wonder and awe at God's creativity.
The fifth wheel strikes again ...

As The Blue One succinctly put it:

Quote
In short, torri deals in knowledge; you deal in guesses.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22042 on: September 11, 2017, 12:48:09 PM »
The fifth wheel strikes again ...

As The Blue One succinctly put it:

Quote
    In short, torri deals in knowledge; you deal in guesses.

But knowledge does not equate ro wisdom
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22043 on: September 11, 2017, 12:51:30 PM »
AB,

Quote
But knowledge does not equate ro wisdom

Depends what you mean by "wisdom", but it'll get you a lot closer to it than guessing will.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22044 on: September 11, 2017, 01:01:29 PM »
AB,

Depends what you mean by "wisdom", but it'll get you a lot closer to it than guessing will.
Just out of interest, in the physically deterministic model of the human brain, what do you think initiates the guess you accuse me of making?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22045 on: September 11, 2017, 01:15:05 PM »
Just out of interest, in the physically deterministic model of the human brain, what do you think initiates the guess you accuse me of making?

The same thing that decides something is Blue or Red.
The same thing that thinks something is a tree or a house.

The brain that is building a model of the universe inside your head.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22046 on: September 11, 2017, 01:15:49 PM »
AB,

Quote
Just out of interest, in the physically deterministic model of the human brain, what do you think initiates the guess you accuse me of making?

The same thing that’s been explained to you dozens (or more) of times here but that you just ignore nonetheless because it falsifies a narrative you refuse to re-examine: the “self” that is the complex emergent property of unfathomably huge numbers of interactions between the component parts of brains. Anything else (eg a “soul” that’s apparently nether deterministic nor random and for which there’s no evidence whatever) is incoherent.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22047 on: September 11, 2017, 01:44:55 PM »

But knowledge does not equate ro wisdom

There is no wisdom with knowledge to back it up, imo.

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22048 on: September 11, 2017, 02:00:56 PM »
The trouble is, lack of knowledge, which creationism demonstrates in spades, does not inspire one with confidence about wisdom.  Added to that, is an habitual tendency to dishonesty and manipulation of facts, which is also off-putting.   Epic fail, as they say on the internet.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22049 on: September 11, 2017, 02:02:28 PM »
Catching up with all the latest posts, I can't help wondering, as I often do, how AB can bear to be so surrounded by the cotton-woolly, over sweet, candyfloss world he inhabits.

Having now reached the chapter in 'Solar System' about the asteroid belt, I know that I so very much prefer the real world.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.