Searching for GOD...

[wigginhall]

Catching up with all the latest posts, I can't help wondering, as I often do, how AB can bear to be so surrounded by the cotton-woolly, over sweet, candyfloss world he inhabits.

Having now reached the chapter in 'Solar System' about the asteroid belt, I know that I so very much prefer the real world.

Yes, I always wonder if the real world is uncomfortable or painful in some way.  Otherwise, how do you explain so much denial of facts and knowledge, in favour of incredulity, and just so stories?  Dunno.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, I always wonder if the real world is uncomfortable or painful in some way.  Otherwise, how do you explain so much denial of facts and knowledge, in favour of incredulity, and just so stories?  Dunno.

The real world can be compared to a big firework which begins with a big explosion of light and energy, then sparkles for a while before slowly fizzling out to a cold, dark end.

We currently exist on the surface of a cooling blob of molten material in the sparkly period.

The real world is a frightening place, but God has given us a little oasis in which life can prosper and develop.

[SusanDoris]

The real world can be compared to a big firework which begins with a big explosion of light and energy, then sparkles for a while before slowly fizzling out to a cold, dark end.

We currently exist on the surface of a cooling blob of molten material in the sparkly period.

The real world is a frightening place, but God has given us a little oasis in which life can prosper and develop.

That is so cloyingly sentimental and twee that I can hardly bear to read it!

Edited to remind you, AB, that you are talking to me, 81, and a man who is of course younger than I am but a serious, thinking adult, in case you hadn't noticed. I almost added, 'we are not a bunch of children', but I did not do so, because no-one should talk down to children like that either anyway`.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

The same thing that’s been explained to you dozens (or more) of times here but that you just ignore nonetheless because it falsifies a narrative you refuse to re-examine: the “self” that is the complex emergent property of unfathomably huge numbers of interactions between the component parts of brains. Anything else (eg a “soul” that’s apparently nether deterministic nor random and for which there’s no evidence whatever) is incoherent.

So do you conclude that whatever comprises my "guess" was inevitably pre destined from the beginning of time?

[torridon]

Just out of interest, in the physically deterministic model of the human brain, what do you think initiates the guess you accuse me of making?

Brains are continually assessing novel information against memory and expectation to make the best interpretation.  The illusion below illustrates this point, and furthermore, demonstrates this fallibility of this approach :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKa0eaKsdA0

This illustrates how beliefs and expectation influence how we see the world.  We see what we expect to see, not what is there, and this feeds into an understanding of why people with deeply entrenched beliefs have difficulty in seeing past them.

[torridon]

So do you conclude that whatever comprises my "guess" was inevitably pre destined from the beginning of time?

No, we cannot rule out randomness.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

So do you conclude that whatever comprises my "guess" was inevitably pre destined from the beginning of time?

Depends what you mean by “pre destined” but if you mean something like, “the outcome of countless interactions of material phenomena” then, ultimately, that’s where the evidence leads yes.

[torridon]

I am sure I am as fascinated as you, Torri, about how this amazing body of ours works.  The difference is that I can look in wonder and awe at God's creativity.

So do you look in awe at the life cycle of parasites that live in the eyeball of their host eventually killing them ?  Or is your awe subject to a massive does of bias ?

[SusanDoris]

So do you look in awe at the life cycle of parasites that live in the eyeball of their host eventually killing them ?  Or is your awe subject to a massive does of bias ?

I await with interest to see if AB actually answers this question.

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

So do you look in awe at the life cycle of parasites that live in the eyeball of their host eventually killing them ?  Or is your awe subject to a massive does of bias ?

For AB "God's creativity" is strictly of the "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woollen mittens" variety. That's why he's had to conjure up devils, "original sin" and the like to explain away the crap stuff his god could fix but chooses no to.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Susan,

I await with interest to see if AB actually answers this question.

He won't. He'll think he has, but he won't.

[wigginhall]

So do you look in awe at the life cycle of parasites that live in the eyeball of their host eventually killing them ?  Or is your awe subject to a massive does of bias ?

Them's Satan's works, m'boy, you gotta keep him down in the hole. 

[Alan Burns]

No, we cannot rule out randomness.

Are you seriously suggesting that my so called guesses about the existence of the human soul are generated by some form of random brain activity?

I can assure you that my thoughts concerning the human soul are deliberately guided by the conscious "me" with no element of randomness.

By your own definitions, if they are not random, they are pre determined by past physical events, so you must conclude that the deliberate thought patterns which lead to my conclusions are the inevitable result of past events dating back to the beginning of time.

[wigginhall]

Are you seriously suggesting that my so called guesses about the existence of the human soul are generated by some form of random brain activity?

I can assure you that my thoughts concerning the human soul are deliberately guided by the conscious "me" with no element of randomness.

By your own definitions, if they are not random, they are pre determined by past physical events, so you must conclude that the deliberate thought patterns which lead to my conclusions are the inevitable result of past events dating back to the beginning of time.

It's just saying that the universe contains stochastic processes.   This is not particularly anything new, although the implications of it are being worked out in various subjects, such as genetics, and physics.   As to the relevance of this to brain functions, beyond my pay grade, although one odd thing is that various local random processes can get swallowed up or 'evened out' in a general pattern. 

Interesting idea that thinking is a stochastic process, or a 'random walk', which is filtered, so as to reduce noise.   

[Sebastian Toe]

By your own definitions, if they are not random, they are pre determined by past physical events, so you must conclude that the deliberate thought patterns which lead to my conclusions are the inevitable result of past events dating back to the beginning of time.

My question to you would be then - so what if they are?
As long as you have the illusion of what you call 'free will' and a 'soul' and you live a fullfilling life under those conditions (and in your case, your god has made it so). Then what's the problem?

[wigginhall]

Can't you see, it's important that you share in the delusion?   This is less lonely for me, and it means that you will get to go to the illusory heaven.   And besides, I have an overpowering impulse to say that I'm right.

[Maeght]

By your own definitions, if they are not random, they are pre determined by past physical events, so you must conclude that the deliberate thought patterns which lead to my conclusions are the inevitable result of past events dating back to the beginning of time.

As has been said, so what if that's the case?

[Alan Burns]

My question to you would be then - so what if they are?
As long as you have the illusion of what you call 'free will' and a 'soul' and you live a fullfilling life under those conditions (and in your case, your god has made it so). Then what's the problem?

I feel it is not me that under an illusion.

[Maeght]

Can yiu answer the question Alan?

[Alan Burns]

So do you look in awe at the life cycle of parasites that live in the eyeball of their host eventually killing them ?  Or is your awe subject to a massive does of bias ?

This is a trivial argument because parasites are just one of many forms of suffering which form part of every human life.  It is inevitable that we will all suffer some form of tragedy in our lives, just as it is inevitable that we will all have to suffer the death of our physical bodies.  I do not believe that God deliberately causes such suffering, but I do believe He can bring good out of it if we put our faith in Him.  The history of Christianity is full of people who have had to endure many forms of suffering, but their faith has remained strong, and in many cases their suffering helped them to find God in their lives.

[Alan Burns]

As has been said, so what if that's the case?

If that is the case, all my actions are pre determined, even my answers to posts, or my decision not to answer, so whatever my response is, you can have no argument with it because it must be the natural deterministic reaction to previous events over which I have no control.

[Alan Burns]

Can't you see, it's important that you share in the delusion?   This is less lonely for me, and it means that you will get to go to the illusory heaven.   And besides, I have an overpowering impulse to say that I'm right.

I am not lonely! I share a wonderful fellowship with many committed Christians, but God calls me to be a witness to the truth.   I do not enjoy getting so much negative feedback, but it does fulfil the prophesy of Jesus that His followers will have to suffer ridicule.

[Sebastian Toe]

I feel it is not me that under an illusion.

But you could be. After all are you not a mere imperfect, fallible human?

[wigginhall]

Oh damn, I keep hoping that there will be something intelligent in relation to Christianity, but a foolish hope.   We are scraping the barrel - incredulity, and wish fulfilment.   

[Shaker]

This is a trivial argument because parasites are just one of many forms of suffering which form part of every human life.  It is inevitable that we will all suffer some form of tragedy in our lives, just as it is inevitable that we will all have to suffer the death of our physical bodies.  I do not believe that God deliberately causes such suffering

We've been here before - even though your Bible states otherwise? (Which you appeared not to know).