Searching for GOD...

[wigginhall]

Of course you can use the bad bits to deny theism.   I thought this has historically been one of the main arguments against, theodicy if you like.   Of course, Christians have got in the habit of dancing around it, by saying that evil is created by Satan (and Satan isn't created by God?), or that free will induces humans to do bad stuff, or that God is not omnipotent, and so on.    But I don't think this erases the doubts, in fact, the sight of theists doing this minuet might increase them, as it ends up looking absurd.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Of course you can use the bad bits to deny theism.   I thought this has historically been one of the main arguments against, theodicy if you like.   Of course, Christians have got in the habit of dancing around it, by saying that evil is created by Satan (and Satan isn't created by God?), or that free will induces humans to do bad stuff, or that God is not omnipotent, and so on.    But I don't think this erases the doubts, in fact, the sight of theists doing this minuet might increase them, as it ends up looking absurd.

Two things i'm not really sure are big even in 'popular christianity'

1: Satan creates.
2: Freewill induces.

Subtle little inclusions of this nature seem to be the stock of the New Atheism and it's fellow travellers.......
I think we ought to beware of reification when it suits. Public and emotive denunciation of reification when it's in the hands of the other side.

[ippy]

Two things i'm not really sure are big even in 'popular christianity'

1: Satan creates.
2: Freewill induces.

Subtle little inclusions of this nature seem to be the stock of the New Atheism and it's fellow travellers.......
I think we ought to beware of reification when it suits. Public and emotive denunciation of reification when it's in the hands of the other side.

I looks like determination to believe in this unevidenced religious stuff wont be in abeyance for a while yet, but at least it seems to be on its way out here in the UK and in the larger part of Europe too, I suppose it's like people that believe in Zeus, Unicorns or Leprechauns there'll always be a few of them left in the end no matter how soppy these beliefs may appear to most people.

ippy

[wigginhall]

Two things i'm not really sure are big even in 'popular christianity'

1: Satan creates.
2: Freewill induces.

Subtle little inclusions of this nature seem to be the stock of the New Atheism and it's fellow travellers.......
I think we ought to beware of reification when it suits. Public and emotive denunciation of reification when it's in the hands of the other side.

Well, a new argument on theodicy would be very interesting.   Over to you. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I suppose it's like people that believe in Zeus, Unicorns or Leprechauns

Let me correct you Ippy
That should have been:
 I suppose it's like people that believe in Zeus, Unicorns, Leprechauns, multiverse and Dark matter.

You're welcome.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad the Mistakenist,

Let me correct you Ippy
That should have been:
 I suppose it's like people that believe in Zeus, Unicorns, Leprechauns, multiverse and Dark matter.

You're welcome.

Let me correct that for you. That should have been:

"I suppose it's like people who believe in Zeus, Unicorns, Leprechauns, and any other faith-based claims of fact."

You're welcome.

[Sebastian Toe]

1: Satan creates.

What does Satan do then?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad the Mistakenist,

Let me correct that for you. That should have been:

"I suppose it's like people who believe in Zeus, Unicorns, Leprechauns, and any other faith-based claims of fact."

Demonstrate unicorns and leprechauns are necessarily faith based claims of fact......or Zeus for that matter.....

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What does Satan do then?

See Old and New Testaments.

[ippy]

Let me correct you Ippy
That should have been:
 I suppose it's like people that believe in Zeus, Unicorns, Leprechauns, multiverse and Dark matter.

You're welcome.

You mention Dark Matter Vlad, apparently it has something to do with the maths of the amount of stuff we should have in the universe to make the sums balance for these theoretical mathematicians, I don't understand it fully but it is a current theory as is the multiverse theory, the other three are equally as credible as the religious belief you say you have just like believing in Bert's teapot.

The theories make a little more sense than your daft religion based assertions, since they will be challenged and will be dumped if they turn out to be unworkable or proved plain wrong.

Sure thing any scientist will gladly dump anything that in the end is proved to be wrong, unlike most religionists that will turn themselves inside out to try and make what little sense they can out of the magical, mystical and superstition based nonsense they are forever asserting.

Ever considered starting up your own Cargo Cult group Vlad, carving lumps of wood to look like radio transmitter sets, lumps of vine to look like wires, setting up large poles outside to look like radio transmitter aerials, keep you busy?

ippy   

[bluehillside Retd.]

BotVlad,

Demonstrate unicorns and leprechauns are necessarily faith based claims of fact......or Zeus for that matter.....

"Captain, the BotVlad algorithm has gone haywire - it's just spewing out random phrases. I cannae hold it!"

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You mention Dark Matter Vlad, apparently it has something to do with the maths of the amount of stuff we should have in the universe to make the sums balance for these theoretical mathematicians, I don't understand it fully but it is a current theory as is the multiverse theory, the other three are equally as credible as the religious belief you say you have just like believing in Bert's teapot.

The theories make a little more sense than your daft religion based assertions, since they will be challenged and will be dumped if they turn out to be unworkable or proved plain wrong.

Sure thing any scientist will gladly dump anything that in the end is proved to be wrong, unlike most religionists that will turn themselves inside out to try and make what little sense they can out of the magical, mystical and superstition based nonsense they are forever asserting.

Ever considered starting up your own Cargo Cult group Vlad, carving lumps of wood to look like radio transmitter sets, lumps of vine to look like wires, setting up large poles outside to look like radio transmitter aerials, keep you busy?

ippy   

A romanticised account of science as she is practiced and the nobility of scientists.
Of course these qualities do not exist outside of science. .......And we know all of this because Dawkins has said so.

[wigginhall]

I've just been reminded that ancient religions also had theodicies, but one thing that they could do is have gods who were themselves spiteful and aggressive, so could enact vengeance on humans.   Maybe a trace of this in Job, where Satan seems like God's consigliere.

[ippy]

A romanticised account of science as she is practiced and the nobility of scientists.
Of course these qualities do not exist outside of science. .......And we know all of this because Dawkins has said so.

Tell all of us about my previous post (22109), on this thread to you Vlad, which part of my description of how science works with theories etc that I've got wrong.

Just an answer no diversionary ploys Vlad, see if you can give a straight answer, I know how difficult it is for you to give a straight answers but think of all those potential brownie points, go on turn over a new leaf.

By the way Vlad, just out of interest, what is your first language?

ippy

[Sebastian Toe]

See Old and New Testaments.

As far as I can see he does create. Which would make your assertion questionable.

[wigginhall]

I was talking about ancient religions which had mad and bad gods, so the question of evil was dealt with.   But then we see this to a degree in the OT, where Yahweh is very much a tribal god, recommending dire action against other gods and peoples, hence the notorious genocide stories.   Kill, kill, kill, if you believe in me.  Evil is not a problem, the big yin creates it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I've just been reminded that ancient religions also had theodicies, but one thing that they could do is have gods who were themselves spiteful and aggressive, so could enact vengeance on humans.   Maybe a trace of this in Job, where Satan seems like God's consigliere.

Too much Godfather Wiggs?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I was talking about ancient religions which had mad and bad gods, so the question of evil was dealt with.   But then we see this to a degree in the OT, where Yahweh is very much a tribal god, recommending dire action against other gods and peoples, hence the notorious genocide stories.   Kill, kill, kill, if you believe in me.  Evil is not a problem, the big yin creates it.

Not only is there more than a hint of God as Old man with a beard here, Wigginhall, You seem to be suggesting that he is Billy Connelly!

It depends on what you mean by evil since people can talk about natural evil. Then I suppose, if we are getting OT about the whole thing, and this is where G.A.O.M.W.B. comes in God is evil because people get killed. Of course we have to read the whole story to find we are rebodied at the end of the reel and then our existence is conditioned by the choice we have made and whether that means inhabiting one's ''own place.''

Of course there are those who say evil equals God....or only God is evil. For some reason those who only see evil as an external issue worry me as it is probably the root of Us and Them.

The love of Money of course is the Root of all evil, an opinion Dawkins had a  hand in effectively dispelling when his selfish gene book gave a bit of a philosophical and intellectual boost to Thatcherite Gordon Geckoism in the seventies and eighties and his visit to the city to ask if the financial was a dog eat dog Darwinian scenario. ''No'' came the swift answer and, seemingly satisfied with that Dawkins left it at that.

In terms of killing which is more evil? Getting killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time or getting killed by an atheist who deliberately ends what he knows to be the only life you have and destroy others knowing there will be no future in which all tears will be wiped away? 

[Dicky Underpants]

See Old and New Testaments.

Not very helpful. Apart from the Book of Job and a reference in Zechariah, Satan is rather conspicuous by his absence in the Old Testament. There is a kind of evolution of the concept Malach Jahweh (spirit or angel of God) into a personification of Satan as a quasi-independent force - most prominent in Job, though there Satan is given express permission to do God's dirty work. The reference in Zechariah seems to indicate a being who has gone a bit too far in his activities and receives the divine smack on wrist.
Let's not forget those verses in Isaiah, which seem to do away with an independent devil altogether:
"[6] I am the LORD, and there is no other.
[7] I form light and create darkness,
I make peace and create evil,
I am the LORD, who do all these things."

All this is very different from Satan as he appears in the NT, particularly one reference in John's gospel, where he appears as a force in a scenario of almost absolute cosmic dualism ("Ye are of your father the Devil ...etc")
Do you believe in a literal personal devil? Be nice if you'd lay your cards on the table.

[ekim]

All this is very different from Satan as he appears in the NT, particularly one reference in John's gospel, where he appears as a force in a scenario of almost absolute cosmic dualism ("Ye are of your father the Devil ...etc")

Perhaps he took on the persona of the Greek god of the underworld, Hades.

[Dicky Underpants]

Well, a new argument on theodicy would be very interesting.   Over to you.

It would indeed. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not very helpful. Apart from the Book of Job and a reference in Zechariah, Satan is rather conspicuous by his absence in the Old Testament. There is a kind of evolution of the concept Malach Jahweh (spirit or angel of God) into a personification of Satan as a quasi-independent force - most prominent in Job, though there Satan is given express permission to do God's dirty work. The reference in Zechariah seems to indicate a being who has gone a bit too far in his activities and receives the divine smack on wrist.
Let's not forget those verses in Isaiah, which seem to do away with an independent devil altogether:
"[6] I am the LORD, and there is no other.
[7] I form light and create darkness,
I make peace and create evil,
I am the LORD, who do all these things."

All this is very different from Satan as he appears in the NT, particularly one reference in John's gospel, where he appears as a force in a scenario of almost absolute cosmic dualism ("Ye are of your father the Devil ...etc")
Do you believe in a literal personal devil? Be nice if you'd lay your cards on the table.

Yes there are many theological viewpoints expressed in the bible and as you point out a kind of evolution. Probably a few interpretations and usages of the word evil and Isaiah describes a mystical experience of divine sovereignty. Where experiences of cosmic totality are to be had.

I cannot completely endorse your ''conspicuous by absence'' thesis and dispute your observation of near absolute cosmic dualism.

Do I believe in a literal personal devil? What do you mean by that? One has to be careful of atheist appeal to the medieval.

[Sebastian Toe]

Do I believe in a literal personal devil? What do you mean by that? One has to be careful of atheist appeal to the medieval.

My question would be;
Do you believe that there is literally a fallen angel, aka Satan aka the Devil as depicted in the Bible.

Lets see how bogged down in definitions you take this discussion.

I predict boggier than Boggy Marsh after a very long rainstorm.

[Alan Burns]

Of course you can use the bad bits to deny theism.   I thought this has historically been one of the main arguments against, theodicy if you like.   Of course, Christians have got in the habit of dancing around it, by saying that evil is created by Satan (and Satan isn't created by God?), or that free will induces humans to do bad stuff, or that God is not omnipotent, and so on.    But I don't think this erases the doubts, in fact, the sight of theists doing this minuet might increase them, as it ends up looking absurd.

You may see it as an argument against theism, but the whole Christian bible is centred around our ability to discern good and evil, and to freely choose between them.  The first book of the bible:
"From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."  Genesis 2:16-17
To me this indicates that before the fall, mankind had no knowledge of evil - but the gift of freedom to choose led to our discovery and experience of evil.  Without this knowledge we may never fully appreciate what our eternal salvation in heaven entails.

[SusanDoris]

You may see it as an argument against theism, but the whole Christian bible is centred around our ability to discern good and evil, and to freely choose between them.  The first book of the bible:
"From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."  Genesis 16-17
To me this indicates that before the fall, mankind had no knowledge of evil - but the gift of freedom to choose led to our discovery and experience of evil.  Without this knowledge we may never fully appreciate what our eternal salvation in heaven entails.

And you still think that in the 21st century? It's almost mediaeval in concept. How can you suspend your disbelief to think that there was such an event as the "fall"?  How do you equate that with the well-tested Theory of Evolution? *deep sighs*