Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3866154 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22550 on: September 25, 2017, 03:44:54 PM »
Vlad the Irrelevantist,

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No more than the claim that Christians have a relational shortfall.

You have misunderstood the context from which Shaker writes.

No, you have misunderstood how the burden of proof works. If someone wants to assert himself to be in a personal relationship with a deity, then the burden of proof to demonstrate that lies with him.

No-one is saying in response “you have a relationship shortfall” (whatever that means) – just “ok, so demonstrate it”. 

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There is for him no personal relationship with God. Jesus is merely a person who is long dead...

There is for everyone until and unless a cogent argument is made to demonstrate the claim.

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Well that's something you either believe or don't and the only problem with that is the tone of the slick dismissal.

The dismissal is a response to the absence of a validating argument – just as you’d dismiss my unqualified claim to be in a personal relationship with leprechauns. 

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Why I take exception to Shaker is his imputing a superior relationship capacity to atheists(No evidence) and emotional shortfall in Christians (evidence of the opposite I would say).

He does no such thing.

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Not so much ''Oi! Nutter!'' more ''Oi! Emotionally stunted nutter''.

Whether you could reasonably characterise the need to “worship” the object of a personal belief as “emotionally stunted” is moot.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22551 on: September 25, 2017, 03:46:42 PM »
You could in fact make a case that if there is an increasing welfare deficit in this country(which is arguable) then it has developed under mostly Christian Prime Ministers. As far as charitable projects are concerned, there is much evidence for huge responses from many of the people of this country, be they religious or not, and in an increasingly secular UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-the-most-charitable-developed-nation-in-the-world-8978545.html
This has been a secular country for decades. Labour have been committed to welfare, Conservativism dedicated to roll it back.

we must therefore look to the religious affiliations of PM's of that party.

M Thatcher Prosperity Gospeller
J Major ?
D Cameron Occasional Christian
T May Prosperity Gospeller

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22552 on: September 25, 2017, 03:49:50 PM »
Well, I should be the judge of said context, and in that case the misunderstanding is all yours.
Ah. Tone trolling. Got you.
If you chase the thread back to the posts you're referring to you'll find that what I actually said is that a personal relationship relies upon actually existing living human beings having said relationship. Anything else is to commit a degree of violence to the English language I'm unwilling to inflict.
Again, not something that I actually said (surprise surprise).
''Oi! Nutter'' summarises my view of what the New Atheist argument boils down to.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22553 on: September 25, 2017, 03:53:54 PM »
Vlad the Spitthedummyist,

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''Oi! Nutter'' summarises my view of what the New Atheist argument boils down to.

Which tells us only that you're unable to rebut the arguments that undo you.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22554 on: September 25, 2017, 03:57:48 PM »
Vlad the Spitthedummyist,

Which tells us only that you're unable to rebut the arguments that undo you.
No such arguments.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22555 on: September 25, 2017, 04:20:18 PM »
This has been a secular country for decades. Labour have been committed to welfare, Conservativism dedicated to roll it back.

we must therefore look to the religious affiliations of PM's of that party.

M Thatcher Prosperity Gospeller
J Major ?
D Cameron Occasional Christian
T May Prosperity Gospeller

Don't agree. One must look at the recent Prime Ministers of both parties during recent decades.

Margaret Thatcher - lay Methodist preacher before she entered politics

David Cameron - "David Cameron has declared himself an "evangelical" about his Christian faith as he criticised some non-believers for failing to grasp the role that religion can have in "helping people to have a moral code".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/16/david-cameron-evangelical-about-christian-faith

Tony Blair - influenced by Anglican priest, Peter Thomson, who awakened his religious faith. Later he converted to Roman Catholicism

Gordon Brown - son of a former minister, member of the Church of Scotland

Teresa May - Vicar's daughter and member of her local CofE
 
“It is part of me. It is part of who I am and therefore how I approach things,”

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/04/what-kind-christian-theresa-may
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22556 on: September 25, 2017, 04:24:55 PM »
This has been a secular country for decades.

This is a country that has been becoming increasingly secular for decades, but it's only in the past decade that it's actually reached a point where anything like a significant minority were open about being non-religious, and the non-religious voice has been given official space and credence.

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Labour have been committed to welfare, Conservativism dedicated to roll it back.

Some of Labour have been committed to welfare - the shadow cabinets that weren't elected in fairly obvious contrast to the Labour cabinets that were...

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we must therefore look to the religious affiliations of PM's of that party.

Why? It's not a one man party, that's what 'party' means.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22557 on: September 25, 2017, 04:33:40 PM »
Don't agree. One must look at the recent Prime Ministers of both parties during recent decades.

Margaret Thatcher - lay Methodist preacher before she entered politics

David Cameron - "David Cameron has declared himself an "evangelical" about his Christian faith as he criticised some non-believers for failing to grasp the role that religion can have in "helping people to have a moral code".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/16/david-cameron-evangelical-about-christian-faith

Tony Blair - influenced by Anglican priest, Peter Thomson, who awakened his religious faith. Later he converted to Roman Catholicism

Gordon Brown - son of a former minister, member of the Church of Scotland

Teresa May - Vicar's daughter and member of her local CofE
 
“It is part of me. It is part of who I am and therefore how I approach things,”

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/04/what-kind-christian-theresa-may
Then I guess I'm saying that Methodism has a thread of self help and Capitalism running through it indeed I believe Methodism features in American prosperity theology.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22558 on: September 25, 2017, 04:43:29 PM »
Vlad the Denialist,

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No such arguments.

Your funniest post yet. Ignoring, lying about and misrepresenting the arguments that undo you does not rebut them.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22559 on: September 25, 2017, 04:49:19 PM »
I think it's very difficult to make historical connections, such as 'secularism leads to reduced welfare'.   How would you actually demonstrate such a link?   Just saying that they are contemporaneous doesn't do it.

For that matter, the Victorians seem to have been more religious than people today, yet workhouses and child labour were common, but it would be inane to say that Christianity caused these things.   Ignores other variables.   Cf. 'eating chocolate makes people live longer', falsely derived from 'people who eat chocolate live longer'.   
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22560 on: September 25, 2017, 04:51:28 PM »
I think it's very difficult to make historical connections, such as 'secularism leads to reduced welfare'.   How would you actually demonstrate such a link?   Just saying that they are contemporaneous doesn't do it.

For that matter, the Victorians seem to have been more religious than people today, yet workhouses and child labour were common, but it would be inane to say that Christianity caused these things.   Ignores other variables.   Cf. 'eating chocolate makes people live longer', falsely derived from 'people who eat chocolate live longer'.

Vlad, just like Jacob Rees Mogg, is proud of food banks  :)

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22561 on: September 25, 2017, 04:57:45 PM »
Well, there are secular food banks, and Christian ones.  You get a better class of baked beans in the Christian ones, but they make you fart more.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22562 on: September 25, 2017, 05:09:17 PM »
Vlad the Denialist,

Your funniest post yet. Ignoring, lying about and misrepresenting the arguments that undo you does not rebut them.
Arguments which undo me?
Not reply 33 again Hillside?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22563 on: September 25, 2017, 05:18:03 PM »
Vlad the Obscurantist,

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Arguments which undo me?
Not reply 33 again Hillside?

?
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God

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22564 on: September 25, 2017, 05:34:39 PM »
This has been a secular country for decades.
Ah, a positive claim.
How do you present your evidence?
Eg

How many decades?
At what point did this country change from bring non-secullar to secular?
What were the main events which caused the change?

Careful now!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22565 on: September 25, 2017, 06:42:26 PM »
I was responding to
Reply #22516 having been moved by it's sanctimonious tone imputing a special goodness to atheism for which I find no evidence of and some kind of relational shortfall in Christianity and explaining what I saw as evident unfeasible antipathy towards all things Christian.

I know why you said it. What I asked us what you meant by it.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22566 on: September 25, 2017, 06:56:55 PM »
Ah, a positive claim.
How do you present your evidence?
Eg

How many decades?
At what point did this country change from bring non-secullar to secular?
What were the main events which caused the change?

Careful now!
Certainly secularism firmly established by the sixties although I think Paxman had it right that the English were never that big on religion.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22567 on: September 25, 2017, 07:32:14 PM »
Certainly secularism firmly established by the sixties
Actual secularism, the real thing I mean, or your version of it?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22568 on: September 25, 2017, 07:37:43 PM »
Actual secularism, the real thing I mean, or your version of it?
Actual secularism. We had ceased to be a theocratic society well and truly by then.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22569 on: September 25, 2017, 07:43:23 PM »
Actual secularism. We had ceased to be a theocratic society well and truly by then.
Leaving aside the excluded middle between theocracy and secularism, when do you think we were a theocracy?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22570 on: September 25, 2017, 07:59:32 PM »
That is not valid.  It is just tantamount to claiming that science does not recognise the principle of emergence, which it plainly does.  There might not exist any particles of control, we have not seen any molecules of mood or atoms of will; so what, is the scientific position therefore that control, mood or will must be supernatural ? Do we imagine the dominant chimp must be supernatural in order for it to exert control over its group as it is made of hydrocarbons rather than particles of control ?
It is human beings who recognise the principle of emergence.  Emergence is not a physical thing.  It is just a human categorisation of complex patterns of physical reactions which give some recognised functionality, and this entirely driven by natural reactions of physical elements to previous events - no control involved, just inevitable reactions to previous events.  How can any form of control or manipulation exist in such a scenario unless there is external interaction from something which is not the result of previous physically induced events?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 10:50:55 PM by Alan Burns »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22571 on: September 25, 2017, 08:32:22 PM »
Does seem to be talking in riddles.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22572 on: September 25, 2017, 08:43:25 PM »
Certainly secularism firmly established by the sixties although I think Paxman had it right that the English were never that big on religion.
Established?
What do you mean by that?
How was it different to say, the forties or the fifties?
Show your working.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22573 on: September 26, 2017, 07:05:18 AM »
It is human beings who recognise the principle of emergence.  Emergence is not a physical thing.  It is just a human categorisation of complex patterns of physical reactions which give some recognised functionality, and this entirely driven by natural reactions of physical elements to previous events - no control involved, just inevitable reactions to previous events.  How can any form of control or manipulation exist in such a scenario unless there is external interaction from something which is not the result of previous physically induced events?

Emergence is a phenomenon of nature and a property of complex systems.  'Physical', is irrelevant to the concept, as are human beings, complex systems exhibited emergent properties before humans came along to understand them. Water always flowed before we came to understand fluid dynamics.

Claiming 'control' to be something 'external' is just an abdication of our potential to understand complex phenomena.  All this does is relocate the phenomenon to a black box in some other realm of reality, beyond our ken, thus trivially relieving ourselves of the effort involved to build understanding.  If you are not prepared to conceptualise how things work inside that black box then it gets us no further forward at all. It is an exercise in evasion, a ploy.

When the dominant chimp exercises control over his family group, it does not help to imagine that adult chimps must therefore be supernatural or 'external'.  Intentionality, will, desire, control, these are real phenomena of this world,  not some external world somehow inexplicably intruding into our reality.  When a chimp fashions a twig to make a tool to extract termites from a mound, its ingenuity, its intentionality, its hunger, these things have not derived from some other realm of reality, they are emergent properties of complex neural systems linking cause and effect, action and reaction, hunger to eating. 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 07:10:19 AM by torridon »

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22574 on: September 26, 2017, 08:32:17 AM »
Emergence is a phenomenon of nature and a property of complex systems.  'Physical', is irrelevant to the concept, as are human beings, complex systems exhibited emergent properties before humans came along to understand them. Water always flowed before we came to understand fluid dynamics.

Claiming 'control' to be something 'external' is just an abdication of our potential to understand complex phenomena.  All this does is relocate the phenomenon to a black box in some other realm of reality, beyond our ken, thus trivially relieving ourselves of the effort involved to build understanding.  If you are not prepared to conceptualise how things work inside that black box then it gets us no further forward at all. It is an exercise in evasion, a ploy.

When the dominant chimp exercises control over his family group, it does not help to imagine that adult chimps must therefore be supernatural or 'external'.  Intentionality, will, desire, control, these are real phenomena of this world,  not some external world somehow inexplicably intruding into our reality.  When a chimp fashions a twig to make a tool to extract termites from a mound, its ingenuity, its intentionality, its hunger, these things have not derived from some other realm of reality, they are emergent properties of complex neural systems linking cause and effect, action and reaction, hunger to eating.

Good post. :)