Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

How many times do I need to say this:
Freedom to consciously choose is not random, neither is it uncontrollably determined by the forces of nature.  It is simply determined by the spiritual power of our conscious human will which can interact with this physical world, not just react to it.

Looks like you're going to be saying it until the penny drops.  A choice made for no reason whatsoever is random.  Just inventing some magical spiritual power as the mechanism of choice will not transform illogic into logic I'm afraid.

[Alan Burns]

Looks like you're going to be saying it until the penny drops.  A choice made for no reason whatsoever is random.  Just inventing some magical spiritual power as the mechanism of choice will not transform illogic into logic I'm afraid.

I have never said a choice does not have a reason.
The reason behind a conscious choice is based on what the person wishes to do.  I will be consciously aware of reasons for and against a specific choice, and there may be many possible choices each with a variety of reasons for and against.  So what is it that initiates the action in the relevant brain cell to implement the choice I make at the time I choose to make it?  Can you not understand the difference between interaction and reaction? 

[Sebastian Toe]

Hence to finish, my position is clear, at least to me. I do not deny the existence of any god, but I see no good reasons why I should bother with believing in one.

You just dont get  it though do you?
You are obviously using your God Given gift of free will to write that post.
That's God Given, you know, given by God.
If God gave it to you then he really really must exist.
Why can't you see that? Are you blind?

(Written in AB-mode, completely ignoring what what actually in your post and selecting the hopefully appropriate mantra.)

[Sebastian Toe]

I have never said a choice does not have a reason.
The reason behind a conscious choice is based on what the person wishes to do.  I will be consciously aware of reasons for and against a specific choice, and there may be many possible choices each with a variety of reasons for and against.  So what is it that initiates the action in the relevant brain cell to implement the choice I make at the time I choose to make it?  Can you not understand the difference between interaction and reaction?

Not bad, but a totally unrealistic model of reality.

[Nearly Sane]

I have never said a choice does not have a reason.
The reason behind a conscious choice is based on what the person wishes to do.  I will be consciously aware of reasons for and against a specific choice, and there may be many possible choices each with a variety of reasons for and against.  So what is it that initiates the action in the relevant brain cell to implement the choice I make at the time I choose to make it?  Can you not understand the difference between interaction and reaction?

Alan, no one has been saying you do think that there is no reason for actions. Note you have made this error frequently, and you have been corrected on it frequently, so as I have asked you many times, please read posts properly and carefully to avoid this sort of mistake.


But your post I think highlights something that might allow for some progress. You talk about 'wanrs' as if this is the free choice that you believe in, but how does that 'want' come about. If it is purely for determined reasons, it is not free. It should be noted after all this time you haven't even attempted to explain what you mean by free. If you somehow choose what you want, then that is surely just another want, in which case you have created an infinite regress.

[Alan Burns]

Alan, no one has been saying you do think that there is no reason for actions. Note you have made this error frequently, and you have been corrected on it frequently, so as I have asked you many times, please read posts properly and carefully to avoid this sort of mistake.


But your post I think highlights something that might allow for some progress. You talk about 'wanrs' as if this is the free choice that you believe in, but how does that 'want' come about. If it is purely for determined reasons, it is not free. It should be noted after all this time you haven't even attempted to explain what you mean by free. If you somehow choose what you want, then that is surely just another want, in which case you have created an infinite regress.

No
By free I simply mean freedom to consciously implement a choice made between two or more alternatives at a time and place of my choice because I want to do it.

The want originates in the conscious soul of the human being, which then implements the want in the way it chooses by interacting with the brain.  The error you and Torri make is in thinking in terms of materially induced reactions which inevitably lead to an infinite regress of cause and effect dating back to the beginning of time.  Just consider the question of where your conscious choice originates.  Is it just the inevitable result of all the past history of unavoidable material reactions which have occurred in this physical universe?  Can our conscious awareness not implement any control over how, where and when we make our choices?

[torridon]

I have never said a choice does not have a reason.
The reason behind a conscious choice is based on what the person wishes to do....

.. and that is why the mechanism of choice is deterministic, we have no control over what we wish, any more than what we believe or what we enjoy.  Try wanting something that you do not want, it cannot be done. Whatever choice we come to is our preference in that moment and we do not have some magic power to intervene in the workings of our brain to make our preference for something else.  It's not so much that

we cannot want something that we do not want,

but rather,

we do not want that which we do not want

and we are stuck with that reality.

[torridon]

Can our conscious awareness not implement any control over how, where and when we make our choices?

Whether it is conscious or not is neither here nor there, it is a bit of a red herring vis a vis this issue. The process of choice is necessarily deterministic.  As it turns out, choices are not made in conscious stream anyhow, that tends to lag behind.  It is subconscious mind that is the real driver of choice and action, consciousness is retrospective.

[torridon]

The want originates in the conscious soul of the human being ....

No it doesn't, there is no evidence for souls.

Back in the real world, we might say that wants originate in the mind, but even that masks a more complex reality.  If you want to eat, because you are hungry, the origin of that want can be traced back to the gut, where neurons detect a state of undernourishment and that information passes to the brain via the central nervous system to become part of the flow. Consider why obese people are obese.  They are killing themselves gradually through overeating despite not wanting to die.  In crude terms, the neurons in the gut are exerting a controlling influence over the brain in a way that is reminiscent of the way that parasites can sometimes control the behaviour of their host, sometimes leading to the death of the host.

Wants do not arise out of thin air, and the choices we make are in the service of those needs, and no outcome is ever free of its determinants.

[Alan Burns]

Torri,
By trying to reconcile your conscious decisions with the physical nature of material reactions to previous events you will never find a definitive source for the original cause of a decision.  Can you not see that this scenario makes the word "deliberate" meaningless?  No matter how complex the physical network of the brain is, in your scenario, each sub atomic element has to obey the natural laws of this universe and simply react accordingly.  No control, just inevitable, unavoidable reaction.

So what is the ultimate cause of all my supposed fallacious arguments and assertions?  In your scenario it is merely the unavoidable reactions of the material elements in my body to all past events.  But in my scenario it is my own conscious choice to share my profound belief that we are more than a mere biological puppet driven by nature, but God's intended creation driven by the spirit of free will from the power of the conscious human soul.

[Shaker]

So what is the ultimate cause of all my supposed fallacious arguments and assertions?

Desperation.

P.S. No "supposed" about it.

[Sebastian Toe]

But in my scenario it is my own conscious choice to share my profound belief that we are more than a mere biological puppet driven by nature, but God's intended creation driven by the spirit of free will from the power of the conscious human soul.

Not bad, but a totally unrealistic model of reality.

[torridon]

Torri,
By trying to reconcile your conscious decisions with the physical nature of material reactions to previous events you will never find a definitive source for the original cause of a decision.  Can you not see that this scenario makes the word "deliberate" meaningless?  No matter how complex the physical network of the brain is, in your scenario, each sub atomic element has to obey the natural laws of this universe and simply react accordingly.  No control, just inevitable, unavoidable reaction...

Still hung up on irrelevent herrings like 'physical' and 'material', I see.  The problem is conceptual, at heart, and 'conceptual' transcends any mere implementation like material, or spiritual.  It is in the nature of choice that it must be deterministic, whatever its means of implementation.  A function whose outputs are not a function of its inputs is not a function at all and likewise a choice that does not serve its needs is not a choice at all, it is merely an irrelevant event.  Brains evolved exactly to collapse such multivariable problems in complex biological systems and if brains did not serve this purpose, producing optimal choices for given inputs at minimal cost then we would not be here to discuss it.

Suppose you come to a fork in the road; you are forced into making a choice which way to go.  There's no guy with a shotgun there threatening to shoot you if you choose the high road rather than the low road, so you feel free, you feel unconstrained, you can choose either the high road or the low road.  But whichever road you finally set out upon, the choice is either determined by some or other relevant considerations, or it is not, in which case your choice is random. If you made the choice for a reason, then the choice is a function of those reasons, it is an outcome of prior events, prior considerations over which you had no control.

[Outrider]

The reason behind a conscious choice is based on what the person wishes to do.

A person chooses what they want to choose? Sometimes, yes, but equally sometimes no. And sometimes what they want at the time of choosing isn't what they would have chosen earlier, or later, or when it was sunny.

I will be consciously aware of reasons for and against a specific choice, and there may be many possible choices each with a variety of reasons for and against.

And there are unconscious influences, as well, and hormonal influences on the brain, and micro-injuries to certain cell pathways, and nutrition and oxygen levels throughout the brain.... but broadly, yes.

So what is it that initiates the action in the relevant brain cell to implement the choice I make at the time I choose to make it?  Can you not understand the difference between interaction and reaction?

There is no difference - a reaction in a complex system is the initiator of the next reaction, you are talking about differences of scale and focus, not differences of quality or nature.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Still hung up on irrelevent herrings like 'physical' and 'material', I see.  The problem is conceptual, at heart, and 'conceptual' transcends any mere implementation like material, or spiritual.  It is in the nature of choice that it must be deterministic, whatever its means of implementation.  A function whose outputs are not a function of its inputs is not a function at all and likewise a choice that does not serve its needs is not a choice at all, it is merely an irrelevant event.  Brains evolved exactly to collapse such multivariable problems in complex biological systems and if brains did not serve this purpose, producing optimal choices for given inputs at minimal cost then we would not be here to discuss it.

Suppose you come to a fork in the road; you are forced into making a choice which way to go.  There's no guy with a shotgun there threatening to shoot you if you choose the high road rather than the low road, so you feel free, you feel unconstrained, you can choose either the high road or the low road.  But whichever road you finally set out upon, the choice is either determined by some or other relevant considerations, or it is not, in which case your choice is random. If you made the choice for a reason, then the choice is a function of those reasons, it is an outcome of prior events, prior considerations over which you had no control.

Torri,
The terms physical and material are entirely relevant.  As you correctly surmise, if all our brain activity is determined by the physical reactions of material elements then we have no control over our brain activity because it is all pre determined by the laws of physics and chemistry acting on the material entities of our brain.

But I have the freedom to drive my conscious thought processes and the freedom to consciously put into action the results of these thought processes if and when I wish.  Of course there is a reason for every action I take, but where and how does that reason originate?  I have used this freedom to take many forks in my path of life which has led me to be a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.  And I have the freedom to pray, and the freedom to choose which prayers I make.  I also have the freedom to reject God if I so wish.  In essence, my freedom has made me what I am.  The uncontrollable reactions of material entities could never have done this.  I can only conclude that my freedom is determined by the ability of my soul to consciously perceive and interact with my physical brain.

[ekim]

No
By free I simply mean freedom to consciously implement a choice made between two or more alternatives at a time and place of my choice because I want to do it.

The want originates in the conscious soul of the human being, which then implements the want in the way it chooses by interacting with the brain.  The error you and Torri make is in thinking in terms of materially induced reactions which inevitably lead to an infinite regress of cause and effect dating back to the beginning of time.  Just consider the question of where your conscious choice originates.  Is it just the inevitable result of all the past history of unavoidable material reactions which have occurred in this physical universe?  Can our conscious awareness not implement any control over how, where and when we make our choices?

What you are describing, Alan, is 'self will' which is based upon all the conditioning processes which have gone towards the make up of your body and mind.  Many of them are unconscious drives and many are learned subconscious processes and they often compete with each other.  What you claim as control seems to be more about suppression of one want or desire in favour of an alternative want or desire.  In either case your will is determined by a selected desire.  The Jesus method is more about transcending that scenario and aligning with what your God desires or wills (Thy Will be done).  That is about as free as you will get in those circumstances.

[Maeght]

Torri,
The terms physical and material are entirely relevant.  As you correctly surmise, if all our brain activity is determined by the physical reactions of material elements then we have no control over our brain activity because it is all pre determined by the laws of physics and chemistry acting on the material entities of our brain.

But I have the freedom to drive my conscious thought processes and the freedom to consciously put into action the results of these thought processes if and when I wish.  Of course there is a reason for every action I take, but where and how does that reason originate?  I have used this freedom to take many forks in my path of life which has led me to be a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.  And I have the freedom to pray, and the freedom to choose which prayers I make.  In essence, my freedom has made me what I am.  The uncontrollable reactions of material entities could never have done this.  I can only conclude that my freedom is determined by the ability of my soul to consciously perceive and interact with my brain.

You repeatedly assert you have freedom to choose but cannot demonstrate that those choices are truely free. It therefore is a matter of belief on your part.  The thing you never address is howany choice can be neither predetermined or random, regardless of what is driving that choice.

[ekim]

You repeatedly assert you have freedom to choose but cannot demonstrate that those choices are truely free. It therefore is a matter of belief on your part.  The thing you never address is howany choice can be neither predetermined or random, regardless of what is driving that choice.

In Christian terms there would be no such condition as random.  All is determined by an omniscient God.  Random is just a human expression to describe a condition of insufficient information.

[Outrider]

The terms physical and material are entirely relevant.  As you correctly surmise, if all our brain activity is determined by the physical reactions of material elements then we have no control over our brain activity because it is all pre determined by the laws of physics and chemistry acting on the material entities of our brain.

That's a matter of perspective, perhaps, but essentially, yes.

But I have the freedom to drive my conscious thought processes and the freedom to consciously put into action the results of these thought processes if and when I wish.

Do you? How can you tell? Which of your thought processes have you measured to show that it's not the result of prior brain activity?

Of course there is a reason for every action I take, but where and how does that reason originate?  I have used this freedom to take many forks in my path of life which has led me to be a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.  And I have the freedom to pray, and the freedom to choose which prayers I make.

But you, being you, do you have the freedom to not believe, to not be a follower, to not pray? They are part of who and what you are, you do not have the freedom to choose those, and though you might feel like those are choices you've previously made you can't demonstrate in any way that they aren't an inevitable consequence of a deterministic universe.

I also have the freedom to reject God if I so wish.  In essence, my freedom has made me what I am.  The uncontrollable reactions of material entities could never have done this.

Why could it not?

I can only conclude that my freedom is determined by the ability of my soul to consciously perceive and interact with my physical brain.

That's the only conclusion you can come to? How do you show that a 'soul' interacts with your physical brain? If that's the only conclusion you can come to, regardless of the dearth of evidence to support it, then just how 'free' is that will?

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I see that you're still doggedly ignoring every argument that undoes you in favour of asserting and re-asserting your personal faith convictions.

Perhaps it'll save time at least if in future you grasp that, each time you reply with a sentence constructed as, "but if X, then Y" you've missed the point. The consequences of an argument tell you nothing about whether the argument itself is robust.

You're welcome. 

[floo]

Torri,
The terms physical and material are entirely relevant.  As you correctly surmise, if all our brain activity is determined by the physical reactions of material elements then we have no control over our brain activity because it is all pre determined by the laws of physics and chemistry acting on the material entities of our brain.

But I have the freedom to drive my conscious thought processes and the freedom to consciously put into action the results of these thought processes if and when I wish.  Of course there is a reason for every action I take, but where and how does that reason originate?  I have used this freedom to take many forks in my path of life which has led me to be a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.  And I have the freedom to pray, and the freedom to choose which prayers I make.  I also have the freedom to reject God if I so wish.  In essence, my freedom has made me what I am.  The uncontrollable reactions of material entities could never have done this.  I can only conclude that my freedom is determined by the ability of my soul to consciously perceive and interact with my physical brain.

And you are entitled to that conclusion even if there is no evidence to support it.

[Sebastian Toe]

I can only conclude that my freedom is determined by the ability of my soul to consciously perceive and interact with my physical brain.

When your body eventually dies and your brain no longer functions, the physical memory banks held within that organ will be lost.
You will be unable to refer to all of the things that make up your personality, your loves, your history etc.
In that event, how will your soul be able to determine that "you" are in fact "you"?

[ippy]

Torri,
The terms physical and material are entirely relevant.  As you correctly surmise, if all our brain activity is determined by the physical reactions of material elements then we have no control over our brain activity because it is all pre determined by the laws of physics and chemistry acting on the material entities of our brain.

But I have the freedom to drive my conscious thought processes and the freedom to consciously put into action the results of these thought processes if and when I wish.  Of course there is a reason for every action I take, but where and how does that reason originate?  I have used this freedom to take many forks in my path of life which has led me to be a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.  And I have the freedom to pray, and the freedom to choose which prayers I make.  I also have the freedom to reject God if I so wish.  In essence, my freedom has made me what I am.  The uncontrollable reactions of material entities could never have done this.  I can only conclude that my freedom is determined by the ability of my soul to consciously perceive and interact with my physical brain.

This idea of a soul that you insist on promoting, quite simply you can't just assert a soul into existence, it sounds like a very nice idea for you but you haven't to this date managed to put forward anything that approaches even a modicum of viable evidence that supports this idea that definitely does exist inside your head.

By the way I don't and never have rejected this god idea of yours and your associates, I've yet to see any good reason to take this god idea of yours up in the first place to be able to then reject god as you put it.

If there were any viable evidence that could or would support your god idea, at the moment just an idea, how come there has never been anything about 'irrefutable evidence for the existence of god found', published in or on the media blasting out everywhere and if In the unlikely event of this viable evidence ever being found, oh no , we'd never hear the end of it 24/7 from all of the goody two shoes religionists, perish the thought.

Were the evidence to be found I would be somewhere as near as devout as most, without going over the top because even if this god of yours did exist I doubt he she or it would be that keen on some of the wet sounding brown noses we endure and read about, any more than the rest of us do.

ippy

 

[Alan Burns]

The thing you never address is howany choice can be neither predetermined or random, regardless of what is driving that choice.

I have addressed this several times, so apologies for having to repeat myself.

I have never claimed that our freedom to choose is not determined.  What I have said is that it is not pre determined by physical events of cause and effect in material elements over which we can have no form of control, since it will be just an inevitable, uncontrollable reaction to previous physical events.  What I have claimed is that the conscious will of the human soul can perceive and interact with the physical brain cells in order to implement an act of will which is determined by our conscious will, not by the uncontrollable forces of nature. 

[Gordon]

I have never claimed that our freedom to choose is not determined.

Good: progress at last.

What I have said is that it is not pre determined by physical events of cause and effect in material elements over which we can have no form of control, since it will be just an inevitable, uncontrollable reaction to previous physical events.

So you say, but it seems you are probably wrong since the 'physical' and 'material' are all we know of that can influence our behaviour (which includes our own biology).

What I have claimed is that the conscious will of the human soul can perceive and interact with the physical brain cells in order to implement an act of will which is determined by our conscious will, not by the uncontrollable forces of nature.

So you have - but you've provided no good reasons to take your claim seriously and, instead, you seem to rely on bad ones.