Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3860684 times)

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22725 on: October 02, 2017, 11:10:38 AM »
I'm wondering where determinism puts intelligence and reasoning.....sounds like you're wanting your cake and eat it.

I see you are gracing us with your presence again.  ;D

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22726 on: October 02, 2017, 11:22:02 AM »
When your body eventually dies and your brain no longer functions, the physical memory banks held within that organ will be lost.
You will be unable to refer to all of the things that make up your personality, your loves, your history etc.
In that event, how will your soul be able to determine that "you" are in fact "you"?
I admit that I do not know the answer to this.  Perhaps we will have a spiritually defined memory of our life on earth.  The nature of our spiritual self is currently beyond our understanding, but we will no doubt discover this when the physical body dies.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 11:27:02 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22727 on: October 02, 2017, 11:23:14 AM »
So are you saying the ability to lie is bestowed on us by god?
Yes, otherwise known as the gift of free will.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22728 on: October 02, 2017, 11:27:15 AM »
I admit that I do not know the answer to this.  Perhaps we will have a spiritually defined memory of our life on earth.  The nature of our spiritual self is beyond currently our understanding, but we will no doubt discover this when the physical body dies.
So, as there is no spiritually defined definition of a spiritual memory after death then, just as you keep repeating your mantra regarding "scientific description"  - you must conclude that it is not really likey to exist!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22729 on: October 02, 2017, 11:32:07 AM »
So, as there is no spiritually defined definition of a spiritual memory after death then, just as you keep repeating your mantra regarding "scientific description"  - you must conclude that it is not really likey to exist!
I am aware that I exist - that is all the proof I need for the existence of my spiritual self.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22730 on: October 02, 2017, 11:34:49 AM »
Yes, otherwise known as the gift of free will.

What a weirdo your version of god is. ::)

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22731 on: October 02, 2017, 11:38:23 AM »
I'm wondering where determinism puts intelligence and reasoning.....sounds like you're wanting your cake and eat it.

Reasoning is an example of a deterministic activity. Intelligence is a measure of capacity at reasoning (in one definition, there are others).

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22732 on: October 02, 2017, 11:39:53 AM »
I am aware that I exist - that is all the proof I need for the existence of my spiritual self.
Not the question I asked.
I was referring to the spiritual memory after death.
 No definition - not likely to exist.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22733 on: October 02, 2017, 11:59:00 AM »
Reasoning is an example of a deterministic activity. Intelligence is a measure of capacity at reasoning (in one definition, there are others).

O.
I guess then you are sticking with determinism. Which does not explain the phenomenon of novelty (as always). Intelligence is the ability to handle novelty surely. Can you now reconcile your determinism with novelty?

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22734 on: October 02, 2017, 12:26:03 PM »
I guess then you are sticking with determinism. Which does not explain the phenomenon of novelty (as always). Intelligence is the ability to handle novelty surely. Can you now reconcile your determinism with novelty?

What you term 'novelty' is an unexpected or unpredicted confluence of otherwise pre-existing phenomena. The ability to 'handle novelty' can be an application of some types of intelligence, certainly, but doesn't define it entirely, surely.

I don't have any problem reconciling determinism with novelty, because I don't see novelty as an unprompted or uncaused event.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22735 on: October 02, 2017, 12:41:22 PM »
What you term 'novelty' is an unexpected or unpredicted confluence of otherwise pre-existing phenomena.
Again....wanting your cake and eat it.
Novelty surely, is that which is new. Not pre-existing phenomena.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22736 on: October 02, 2017, 12:47:29 PM »
Again....wanting your cake and eat it.
Novelty surely, is that which is new. Not pre-existing phenomena.

Unless you can demonstrate an example that isn't a new (to you) combination of pre-existing phenomena, I don't need to have my cake and eat it, I can just eat it and wait for the next 'new' recipe to come along....

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22737 on: October 02, 2017, 12:57:43 PM »
Again....wanting your cake and eat it.
Novelty surely, is that which is new. Not pre-existing phenomena.
why don't you take your spoon out of your bowl of word soup and stop playing with your food?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22738 on: October 02, 2017, 01:01:21 PM »
Our freedom to choose is simply illustrated by the fact that we have the ability to deliberately tell a lie.  Before we commit the act, we will be well aware of what we are about to do, and it will take a deliberate act of will to do it.  And we know we have the conscious freedom to either tell a lie or to tell the truth.  After telling the lie, we may well regret it, knowing that we could and should have told the truth.  Can you not see that this scenario is no automated pre determined action dictated by the uncontrollable forces of nature.  It is the person who has control, and the freedom to choose.  A freedom which nature alone can't provide.

This makes no difference whatsoever.  It is still subject to the same logic; that it is 'deliberate' or 'conscious' is irrelevant.

What is it that you most want to do in the next moment ?  Maybe I might want to tell a lie, full knowing that it is immoral; maybe I might want to read a poem or take a glass of pop or catch a bus to Luton (no, probably not that) or say boo to a goose or make a carrot cake.  The possibilities of the next moment are multitudinous and in so far as no one is obstructing my cunning schemes I feel free in that.

However, my point is that whatever my choice is, all I am doing is expressing my preference at that moment in time, and I do not choose what preference to have, I merely try to identify it act upon it.  My desires, hopes, fears, feelings in the present moment were formed before the present moment and in a moment of choice we identify which of the multitude of competing urges is the strongest at that moment.  We do not choose what should be the strongest urge, we cannot choose that any more than we can choose what to believe or what to enjoy or what to hate or how to find the taste of chocolate.  These things we discover, not choose.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22739 on: October 02, 2017, 01:07:25 PM »
Unless you can demonstrate an example that isn't a new (to you) combination of pre-existing phenomena, I don't need to have my cake and eat it, I can just eat it and wait for the next 'new' recipe to come along....

O.
I think you'll find that something that is new is not only not pre existing but also not necessarily a combination of the pre-existing. There is therefore an element where the new cannot be reduced to the previous...or even a combination of it.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22740 on: October 02, 2017, 01:16:08 PM »
I think you'll find that something that is new is not only not pre existing but also not necessarily a combination of the pre-existing. There is therefore an element where the new cannot be reduced to the previous...or even a combination of it.

However, I think you'll find that definition of 'new' refers to things that don't actually exist... Just an example will be fine, any example. Any at all...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22741 on: October 02, 2017, 01:16:45 PM »
ALAN BURNS a question

when a photon leaves the suns core does your god determine the path it takes  or is it random or is it something else .
Perhaps you think it chooses its own path?  Id like to know what you think ,please.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22742 on: October 02, 2017, 01:19:21 PM »
However, I think you'll find that definition of 'new' refers to things that don't actually exist... Just an example will be fine, any example. Any at all...

O.
oh! now that's a good one .

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22743 on: October 02, 2017, 01:28:01 PM »
I guess then you are sticking with determinism. Which does not explain the phenomenon of novelty (as always). Intelligence is the ability to handle novelty surely. Can you now reconcile your determinism with novelty?

'Novelty' is surely just unusual or infrequent events that perhaps have equally unusual or infrequent precursors, which is why they are novel: but they are still amenable to investigation and/or explanation.

What would be novel would be all newly-born giraffes from today on having wings and being able to fly - but that type of 'novel' doesn't happen!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22744 on: October 02, 2017, 01:33:39 PM »
However, I think you'll find that definition of 'new' refers to things that don't actually exist... Just an example will be fine, any example. Any at all...

O.
I don't think I will. You seem to be redefining the term new.
Therefore anything that is new has an element of independence from any confluence of the prexistent.
Your philosophy has I believe been described as reductionism. That's fine but you cannot have any 'new' thing and not have it simultaneously.

No amount of strutting will remove the problem of emergence and novelty I'm afraid.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22745 on: October 02, 2017, 01:35:13 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I think you'll find that something that is new is not only not pre existing but also not necessarily a combination of the pre-existing. There is therefore an element where the new cannot be reduced to the previous...or even a combination of it.

You seem to be alluding to the notion of "novel" as creation ex nihilo. Perhaps you should demonstrate an example of it before overreaching into your "therefore"?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22746 on: October 02, 2017, 01:35:57 PM »
'Novelty' is surely just unusual or infrequent events that perhaps have equally unusual or infrequent precursors, which is why they are novel: but they are still amenable to investigation and/or explanation.

I wouldn't have define the new as the unusual or infrequent because a phenomenon can be unusual and infrequent .....and not be new.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22747 on: October 02, 2017, 01:36:54 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
No amount of strutting will remove the problem of emergence and novelty I'm afraid.

You haven't explained yet what you think the "problem" to be.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22748 on: October 02, 2017, 01:38:02 PM »
I don't think I will. You seem to be redefining the term new.
Therefore anything that is new has an element of independence from any confluence of the prexistent.
Your philosophy has I believe been described as reductionism. That's fine but you cannot have any 'new' thing and not have it simultaneously.

No amount of strutting will remove the problem of emergence and novelty I'm afraid.

Perhaps I missed it, I don't think I saw an example in there...? You can talk about conceptual 'newness' and its independence from prior phenomena, but unless you can give an example all you have is a concept with no evidentiary basis... and that's far from new.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22749 on: October 02, 2017, 01:38:31 PM »
I think you'll find that something that is new is not only not pre existing but also not necessarily a combination of the pre-existing. There is therefore an element where the new cannot be reduced to the previous...or even a combination of it.

Do you have an example of something new which isn't a combination  of the  pre-existing?