Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3862570 times)

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22850 on: October 05, 2017, 12:35:19 PM »
But you can choose to stay in the rain and get wet, or you can choose to find shelter, or you can choose to buy an umbrella, or you can choose to put up your hood (if you have one).  The choice is all yours.

I am the pattern of electrical activity that is responding to the stimulus of rain, against a background of iterative programming of experience of previous rain, giving an output that fulfils one of those results - none of that makes it 'free' of the prior conditions, and my awareness of the process doesn't liberate it from determinism, either.

O.
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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22851 on: October 05, 2017, 12:37:01 PM »
Without being able to enter the mind of a dog or a cat, I would assume that it would have no choice but to follow its instinctive, highly predictable reaction to whatever prevails.

And we don't have an instinctive highly predictable reaction to whatever prevails? Instinct often takes over when people perceive they are in danger, often without apparently giving thought to the consequences of their actions. Think how many crowds have stampeded over the years resulting in some deaths and serious injuries.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22852 on: October 05, 2017, 01:20:23 PM »
And we don't have an instinctive highly predictable reaction to whatever prevails? Instinct often takes over when people perceive they are in danger, often without apparently giving thought to the consequences of their actions. Think how many crowds have stampeded over the years resulting in some deaths and serious injuries.

How do you account for the cerbrospinal system where the autonomic nervous system is not only monitoring various elements of our life support systems also steps in where we react to a sudden burns and springs us away in double quick time, this process of springing away is actioned by our spinal cord and then after it's done this job it goes on to inform the brain about what it has done.

I suppose the spinal cord must be informing the soul as well after it has completed this action, is that right Alan.

By the way Alan, have you looked up the word 'fantasy' in a good dictionary yet?

ippy

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22853 on: October 05, 2017, 01:26:47 PM »
And what is it precisely that you deem to have ducked the issue?
Is it the uncontrollable material reactions of the sub atomic particles in my brain?
Or is it my conscious self which controls my thoughts which I consciously decide to type out on my keyboard?

We've already covered this so many times before.  The conscious self, is itself a phenomenological outcome of lower levels of mind, it is not fundamental, it is not  irreducible, but rather, it is derivative.  The real seat of power and agency lies in lower levels of subconscious mind.  Clearly that is not how it feels, for obvious reasons, we are not aware of subliminal preconscious states of mind. 

But all these complicating issues are irrelevant anyway as you are still stuck with the basic problem that a choice, however it is made, must either be a consequence of the circumstances that led up to the choice, or it is random and irrelevant.

Try this thought experiment : still yourself down, put out the lights, clear your mind as best you can, and then, after a few moments of calm, try to decide what you will do in the next moment.  Then, afterwards, think back at that moment of choice and try to identify the reasons why you made that choice. One thing out of all the possibilities would have emerged as the most urgent thing to do right there, right then.  This is what minds are for, this is why brains exist, to resolve competing demands on our resources.  Whatever came out as top priority in that moment, did you decide that that should have been top priority, or did it just feel the most important ?  This is where your notion of soul runs of out steam. A soul (or anything else for that matter) cannot be assigning importance to our various urges because in order to do that, there must be some basis on which to prioritise. A moment of choice is a moment of identifying which issue is the most important, not one of choosing which issue is most important - that leads to an infinite regress.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22854 on: October 05, 2017, 01:35:29 PM »
How do you account for the cerbrospinal system where the autonomic nervous system is not only monitoring various elements of our life support systems also steps in where we react to a sudden burns and springs us away in double quick time, this process of springing away is actioned by our spinal cord and then after it's done this job it goes on to inform the brain about what it has done.

I suppose the spinal cord must be informing the soul as well after it has completed this action, is that right Alan.

By the way Alan, have you looked up the word 'fantasy' in a good dictionary yet?

ippy

Mine can't be working too well my hands are a burn scar art form! :o

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22855 on: October 05, 2017, 01:41:45 PM »
Mine can't be working too well my hands are a burn scar art form! :o

This movement necessarily has to be as quick as pos, so the spine's involvement would be from somewhere near to mid trunk downwards and obviously other faster roots above that.

Regards ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22856 on: October 05, 2017, 02:59:37 PM »
I am the pattern of electrical activity that is responding to the stimulus of rain, against a background of iterative programming of experience of previous rain, giving an output that fulfils one of those results - none of that makes it 'free' of the prior conditions, and my awareness of the process doesn't liberate it from determinism, either.

O.

Had me worrying there for a moment Outrider, I thought our Alan was making a start on electrical energy but it was you making the reference.

Seriously Outrider, be careful if you're thinking of coming at this from the 'dynamic electrical energy' direction, you never know where it  might lead you?

ippy

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22857 on: October 05, 2017, 03:13:48 PM »
Had me worrying there for a moment Outrider, I thought our Alan was making a start on electrical energy but it was you making the reference.

Seriously Outrider, be careful if you're thinking of coming at this from the 'dynamic electrical energy' direction, you never know where it  might lead you?

ippy

NM might sue for copyright violation! ;D

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22858 on: October 05, 2017, 03:20:55 PM »
NM might sue for copyright violation! ;D

It's not righteous electrical energy, just your regular run-of them mill, neurochemical electrical energy :)

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22859 on: October 05, 2017, 03:23:27 PM »
It's not righteous electrical energy, just your regular run-of them mill, neurochemical electrical energy :)

O.

Oh well that is ok then. ;D

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22860 on: October 05, 2017, 04:22:01 PM »
We've already covered this so many times before.  The conscious self, is itself a phenomenological outcome of lower levels of mind, it is not fundamental, it is not  irreducible, but rather, it is derivative.  The real seat of power and agency lies in lower levels of subconscious mind.  Clearly that is not how it feels, for obvious reasons, we are not aware of subliminal preconscious states of mind. 

But all these complicating issues are irrelevant anyway as you are still stuck with the basic problem that a choice, however it is made, must either be a consequence of the circumstances that led up to the choice, or it is random and irrelevant.

Try this thought experiment : still yourself down, put out the lights, clear your mind as best you can, and then, after a few moments of calm, try to decide what you will do in the next moment.  Then, afterwards, think back at that moment of choice and try to identify the reasons why you made that choice. One thing out of all the possibilities would have emerged as the most urgent thing to do right there, right then.  This is what minds are for, this is why brains exist, to resolve competing demands on our resources.  Whatever came out as top priority in that moment, did you decide that that should have been top priority, or did it just feel the most important ?  This is where your notion of soul runs of out steam. A soul (or anything else for that matter) cannot be assigning importance to our various urges because in order to do that, there must be some basis on which to prioritise. A moment of choice is a moment of identifying which issue is the most important, not one of choosing which issue is most important - that leads to an infinite regress.
You can wrap it up in whatever technical jargon you choose, but in the end I still have the freedom to consciously choose, and in this instance I consciously choose not to do your thought experiment simply because I do not want to.  QED
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 04:28:50 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22861 on: October 05, 2017, 04:23:10 PM »
You can wrap it up in whatever technical jargon you choose, but in the end I still have the freedom to consciously choose, and in this instance I consciously choose not to do you thought experiment simply because I do not want to.  QED

But then you were always going to say that, Alan.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22862 on: October 05, 2017, 04:26:00 PM »
But then you were always going to say that, Alan.

No, it was just another random outburst...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22863 on: October 05, 2017, 04:27:45 PM »
And we don't have an instinctive highly predictable reaction to whatever prevails? Instinct often takes over when people perceive they are in danger, often without apparently giving thought to the consequences of their actions. Think how many crowds have stampeded over the years resulting in some deaths and serious injuries.
Sometimes our primitive, animal like instincts will prevail, but that does not take away our freedom to choose in many other situations.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22864 on: October 05, 2017, 04:30:36 PM »
No, it was just another random outburst...

O.
No, it was a consciously chosen option from many possible options.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22865 on: October 05, 2017, 04:33:46 PM »
FFS, is religion always this boring?
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22866 on: October 05, 2017, 04:37:07 PM »
No, it was a consciously chosen option from many possible options.
What were the options, and how did you decide? How did your brain have those options? How was the knowledge already there from which to make your choise?


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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22867 on: October 05, 2017, 05:11:51 PM »
Sometimes our primitive, animal like instincts will prevail, but that does not take away our freedom to choose in many other situations.

Hmmmmmmmm!

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22868 on: October 05, 2017, 05:14:29 PM »
No, it was a consciously chosen option from many possible options.

No, you were always going to say what you eventually did say (even if it didn't feel like it).

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22869 on: October 05, 2017, 05:16:16 PM »
You can wrap it up in whatever technical jargon you choose, but in the end I still have the freedom to consciously choose, and in this instance I consciously choose not to do your thought experiment simply because I do not want to.  QED

My point exactly.  You cannot choose what to want; you are stuck with whatever it is that you want and you cannot change it by willpower as will is defined by what you want.  This is the nature of will. 

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22870 on: October 05, 2017, 05:53:48 PM »
What were the options, and how did you decide? How did your brain have those options? How was the knowledge already there from which to make your choise?
Of course the knowledge of all feasible options is there in my conscious awareness, but I still have the freedom to make the final choice.  It is not automated.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22871 on: October 05, 2017, 06:03:58 PM »
My point exactly.  You cannot choose what to want; you are stuck with whatever it is that you want and you cannot change it by willpower as will is defined by what you want.  This is the nature of will.
You are so, so wrong.  The reality is that we are far more than automated biological machines.  We are conscious entities with the power and freedom to make our own choices.  Of course I can choose whatever I want within the practical limits of what is physically possible for me to do.  The choice is not automated, it is driven by my conscious will.  This is reality.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22872 on: October 05, 2017, 06:25:10 PM »
You are so, so wrong.  The reality is that we are far more than automated biological machines.  We are conscious entities with the power and freedom to make our own choices.  Of course I can choose whatever I want within the practical limits of what is physically possible for me to do.  The choice is not automated, it is driven by my conscious will.  This is reality.
If we on this forum  had one of those machines which record electrical action and you were wired up to it and sitting thinking about nothing in particular, or, for example, reading a post in this thread, do you really think that the equipment would register activity ONLY after you are consciously aware that you have made the CONSCIOUS decision to type a response?

Not well put - I hope someone can format that question better!
The evidence is that,  every time,  the equipment registers before the person is consciously aware of having decided to take an action.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22873 on: October 05, 2017, 06:52:46 PM »
You are so, so wrong. 
Nope. You are.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22874 on: October 05, 2017, 08:03:11 PM »
You are so, so wrong.  The reality is that we are far more than automated biological machines.  We are conscious entities with the power and freedom to make our own choices.  Of course I can choose whatever I want within the practical limits of what is physically possible for me to do.  The choice is not automated, it is driven by my conscious will.  This is reality.

Any chance of answering how your conscious will decides what to drive if it is neither predetermined or random..