Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

If we on this forum  had one of those machines which record electrical action and you were wired up to it and sitting thinking about nothing in particular, or, for example, reading a post in this thread, do you really think that the equipment would register activity ONLY after you are consciously aware that you have made the CONSCIOUS decision to type a response?

Not well put - I hope someone can format that question better!
The evidence is that,  every time,  the equipment registers before the person is consciously aware of having decided to take an action.

I understand what you are saying, Susan.  And I am fully aware of the science which indicates specific brain activity prior to our conscious decision.  But I am also aware that the spiritual powers of the human soul must be fully capable of implementing my conscious choices.  And I believe the soul is not constrained by the physical limitations of this universe and can invoke whatever is needed to implement our conscious choices.

[Gordon]

But I am also aware that the spiritual powers of the human soul must be fully capable of implementing my conscious choices.

You just believe that, Alan, but there are no good reasons to think you are correct.
 

And I believe the soul is not constrained by the physical limitations of this universe and can invoke whatever is needed to implement our conscious choices.

So you do, but without good reason: this 'soul' notion looks like a contrived hook you've manufactured so that you've got somewhere to hang your particular take on 'god'.   

[Alan Burns]

You just believe that, Alan, but there are no good reasons to think you are correct.
 
So you do, but without good reason: this 'soul' notion looks like a contrived hook you've manufactured so that you've got somewhere to hang your particular take on 'god'.

The good reason I have to believe in the power of the soul to invoke my conscious choice lies in the reality perceived by 100% of the human population that they have the freedom to choose.

[Shaker]

The good reason I have to believe in the power of the soul to invoke my conscious choice lies in the reality perceived by 100% of the human population that they have the freedom to choose.

Eyes down boys and girls, the fallacy bingo starts ...

[torridon]

You are so, so wrong.  The reality is that we are far more than automated biological machines.  We are conscious entities with the power and freedom to make our own choices.  Of course I can choose whatever I want within the practical limits of what is physically possible for me to do.  The choice is not automated, it is driven by my conscious will.  This is reality.

Yes we try to obtain whatever it is that we want, but we do not, can not, choose what it is that we want in the first place. We discover our wants and try to act on them.  Can you imagine a world in which we were not constrained this way ? A world wherein people could just decide to want what they do not want for no reason, for this is what your scenario implies.  This is profoundly simple and profoundly true, that we want the things that we want and we do not want the things that we don't want and those things are ultimately not a matter of choice.  This insight helps to explain the behaviours of not just humans, but everything and anything that exhibits behaviours.  Have you tried my thought experiment of trying to want something that you don't want ?  Tried wanting a homosexual affair ?  Probably not, and the reason is blindingly simple, it is because you don't want to and there is nothing you can do about it.  You are stuck with not wanting to be a homosexual and not wanting to be an atheist, but in other people their hopes and desires take a different course because they have had a different track through life.  Can you imagine what it would be like to be a retired accountant wanting nothing more than to kill as many random people in Vegas as possible ? I can't either, to be honest, but I can at least understand the underlying principles of how cause and effect operate through minds to produce seemingly unthinkable behaviours and if cause and effect were not at work then there would be no Vegas and no accountants in the first place. 

Things happen for a reason and it is good that that is the case.  People do things for a reason and it is good that that is the case.  Anything else would be utterly incomprehensible.

[Gordon]

The good reason I have to believe in the power of the soul to invoke my conscious choice lies in the reality perceived by 100% of the human population that they have the freedom to choose.

Speak for yourself, Alan.

I agree that it often feels like I have freedom to choose but I'm not certain that I do so since I can't free myself from any precursors that may determine my apparently free choice or the possibility that there are aspects involving the neural activity in my own brain that are influential on my apparent choice, but where I'm not conscious of these. I reject your notion of this 'power of the soul' that is allegedly somehow separate from my biology yet acts on my neural functions (such as they are) as being fallacious nonsense. 

[Sebastian Toe]

The good reason I have to believe in the power of the soul to invoke my conscious choice lies in the reality perceived by 100% of the human population that they have the freedom to choose.

Not true.
100% do not have the freedom to choose.

[torridon]

The good reason I have to believe in the power of the soul to invoke my conscious choice lies in the reality perceived by 100% of the human population that they have the freedom to choose.

Likewise 100% of the human population believe the sky to be blue, but it isn't, really.  Likewise 100% of the human population believe that two apples can be made to touch each other, but again, not really, GCSE level physics tells a rather different story which dissolves  the notion of touch.

It's one thing to run with our common everyday conceptions of reality without recourse to deeper understanding. As much is expeditious. 

It is another thing altogether however to mount a systematic and persistent denial of deeper understanding like some flat earther denying the concept of gravity.

[torridon]

We are not just machines, we each have a conscious entity within us which can control what we do.  And we will all be held to account for how we use this gift.

Just suppose for a moment that you are right, that there is a god and this ability to make choices that are free of determinism is a 'gift' bestowed uniquely on humans, give an example of this in practice.  I cannot see how the ability to want something that I do not want would be a gift at all.  I cannot see how the ability to make choices that do not address need would be a gift at all.  Looks like a recipe for chaos to me.

[Alan Burns]

FFS, is religion always this boring?

Well, if God and souls did not exist, and everything was entirely determined by previous events, and there was no freedom to make conscious choices, this world would be very boring indeed - and there would be no one to perceive it. 

[Alan Burns]

Just suppose for a moment that you are right, that there is a god and this ability to make choices that are free of determinism is a 'gift' bestowed uniquely on humans, give an example of this in practice.  I cannot see how the ability to want something that I do not want would be a gift at all.  I cannot see how the ability to make choices that do not address need would be a gift at all.  Looks like a recipe for chaos to me.

Torri, can you not understand that the freedom to make a conscious choice does not mean that it is not determined.  Your choice will be determined by the conscious will of the human soul.

[torridon]

Torri, can you not understand that the freedom to make a conscious choice does not mean that it is not determined.  Your choice will be determined by the conscious will of the human soul.

So you are saying that it is still deterministic then.  All the above two sentences indicate is that the choices made by a soul are unfree, constrained by determinism, as opposed to what I would say, which is that the choices made by a mind are unfree in as much as they are an outcome of determinism.

[floo]

Well, if God and souls did not exist, and everything was entirely determined by previous events, and there was no freedom to make conscious choices, this world would be very boring indeed - and there would be no one to perceive it. 

What is your definition of a 'soul'?

[Alan Burns]

So you are saying that it is still deterministic then.  All the above two sentences indicate is that the choices made by a soul are unfree, constrained by determinism, as opposed to what I would say, which is that the choices made by a mind are unfree in as much as they are an outcome of determinism.

But you seem to equate the Soul's ability to make and implement conscious choices with the physically determined workings of the human brain.  The difference is that the soul consciously chooses and interacts, but the physically driven brain can only react.

[Alan Burns]

What is your definition of a 'soul'?

The soul is you, Floo.  It is you that can perceive and interact with the content of your physical brain.

[floo]

The soul is you, Floo.  It is you that can perceive and interact with the content of your physical brain.

So you think the soul, which I believe to be just another name for consciousness activated by the brain, is a separate entity? If so, where in the body does it reside?

[Maeght]

But you seem to equate the Soul's ability to make and implement conscious choices with the physically determined workings of the human brain.  The difference is that the soul consciously chooses and interacts, but the physically driven brain can only react.

How does the soul make any choices if they are neither predetermined or random?

[torridon]

But you seem to equate the Soul's ability to make and implement conscious choices with the physically determined workings of the human brain.  The difference is that the soul consciously chooses and interacts, but the physically driven brain can only react.

I don't do souls, that is your department.  No evidence for souls, no definition for souls, so I don't see that as adding anything of explanatory value.  I accept we have minds and it is minds that makes choices, consciously or not, and our minds function in a way that is ultimately true to the underlying notions of logic, of cause and effect, of action and reaction. A mind cannot escape this fundamental reality, and if you claim that a soul can, then that marks out a soul as something fundamentally and intrinsically incoherent.

[ekim]

So you think the soul, which I believe to be just another name for consciousness activated by the brain, is a separate entity? If so, where in the body does it reside?

Perhaps Alan is saying the reverse i.e. that the body resides in the soul and that the brain and the body is activated by it.

[Maeght]

How can a body reside in a soul?

[Outrider]

No, it was a consciously chosen option from many possible options.

So there was nothing random in it? In that case it was, by definition, entirely based on prior events, right? If not, what was the other thing that is both not random and not the effect of a prior cause? I appreciate that events can have multiple influences, and that some might be random and some determined, but you are suggesting that there is some 'third way' here that is neither deterministic nor random - what is that?

O.

[Maeght]

So there was nothing random in it? In that case it was, by definition, entirely based on prior events, right? If not, what was the other thing that is both not random and not the effect of a prior cause? I appreciate that events can have multiple influences, and that some might be random and some determined, but you are suggesting that there is some 'third way' here that is neither deterministic nor random - what is that?

O.

Alan has been asked this so many times and never answered. Fingers crossed for this time.

[floo]

How can a body reside in a soul?

Maybe the body is just an illusion!

[Maeght]

Maybe the body is just an illusion!

Maybe, not sure how that would answer my question though.

[Alan Burns]

So there was nothing random in it? In that case it was, by definition, entirely based on prior events, right? If not, what was the other thing that is both not random and not the effect of a prior cause? I appreciate that events can have multiple influences, and that some might be random and some determined, but you are suggesting that there is some 'third way' here that is neither deterministic nor random - what is that?

O.

You seem unable to grasp the concept of the nature of our conscious awareness and what it is capable of.  At any one time we can be aware of many possible choices and many possible reasons for each choice.  Ultimately the decision of which (in any) of these choices is to be implemented is invoked by the property of our conscious awareness to interact with our brain.  Yes, there is a reason for invoking the choice, and this reason originates in the conscious awareness of our human soul, not in the endless chains of physical cause and effect which trace back to the beginning of time.