Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

If we didn't have what you call 'basic' animal instincts, our species would probably not even have  begun to evolve, let alone arrive at the stage of having language with which to express your thoughts here. And yes, I think they are shallow because you have such opaque blinkers on to shield you fromreal life.

I do not deny that we have basic animal instincts, but I do believe that the spiritual will and perception of the human soul has the power to override these basic instincts to provide all the amazing human attributes which other animals do not have - language, creativity, art, philosophy, scientific knowledge, spiritual awareness, the ability to believe in God.

[floo]

I do not deny that we have basic animal instincts, but I do believe that the spiritual will of the human soul has the power to override these basic instincts to provide all the amazing human attributes which other animals do not have.

You believe that to be true, but have no evidence it is so.

[torridon]

If there is no spiritually determined option, everything we do would be driven by basic animal instincts, and we would certainly not be able to post on a forum such as this.

Why ?  What's your justification for that claim ?

[torridon]

The physicist is an expert on a branch of science which deals with material properties, energy and how things react.  Anything outside the realms of physical science will be outside his expertise.  To assume that all reality can be explained in terms of physical science is truly naive.

I never claimed the physicist would be able to explain all reality.  I claimed that he would be better placed than the stallholder to offer insights into the nature of reality.  We can all learn from people who have invested time to become experts in their field.

[Alan Burns]

Why ?  What's your justification for that claim ?

The existence of human free will

[Sebastian Toe]

The existence of human free will

Alleged.........

[wigginhall]

You believe that to be true, but have no evidence it is so.

Yes, it's very weird to be arguing about someone's beliefs, about which he has no evidence, or in  fact, any serious arguments.  I suppose it's a useful chew-toy.

[ippy]

Alleged.........

Apart from a sensible framework of law, being locked up in prison or handicapped in some way we have free will, it's not a matter of choice, there's nothing deep to be discussed about free will, we have it, it's there for all to see, there's no option it's there and there's zero evidence that free will has been given to us by some imagined authority.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Yes, it's very weird to be arguing about someone's beliefs, about which he has no evidence, or in  fact, any serious arguments.  I suppose it's a useful chew-toy.

The evidence lies in your ability to perceive and interact with this physical world

[Alan Burns]

Apart from a sensible framework of law, being locked up in prison or handicapped in some way we have free will, it's not a matter of choice, there's nothing deep to be discussed about free will, we have it, it's there for all to see, there's no option it's there and there's zero evidence that free will has been given to us by some imagined authority.

ippy

Well, it certainly has not been given to us by the uncontrollable laws of physics.

[ippy]

The evidence lies in your ability to perceive and interact with this physical world

More arrogance.

ippy

[Enki]

But you still seem to overlook the possibility of a spiritually determined option, which offers a far better explanation for our ability to make consciously determined choices than the endless chains of unavoidable physical cause and effect.

I don't overlook the possibility of a spiritually determined option. However to look at it seriously I need evidence that it exists, how it interacts with the physical, what this determination consists of etc. and that is something you seem totally unable to give. Furthermore, for me, it doesn't offer a far better explanation for our ability to make consciously determined choices at all. Animals show this same ability to make choices, albeit in a less complex way than humans. I have every reason to think that what constitutes 'me' is a combination of the workings of my brain and my body, and the fact that I am posting on this forum is in no way an argument in favour of any spiritually determined option. Indeed, the word 'spiritual' here seems to have no real meaning. You seem not to be able to flesh it out at all, you simply assert. In my book, that's not good enough. Just because you believe in something is no reason why I, too, should believe it.

[SusanDoris]

There is one thing for sure - AB is most certainly not an expert on humans or the real world, or of course how it functions!!

[Alan Burns]

More arrogance.

ippy

Not arrogance, but based on the physical impossibility for purely material based entities to perceive and consciously interact with our world, as oppose to physical reaction.

[wigginhall]

The evidence lies in your ability to perceive and interact with this physical world

Eh?   Not really.   If you think that is evidence, I have a bridge to sell you, going cheap, easy instalments.

[Alan Burns]

There is one thing for sure - AB is most certainly not an expert on humans or the real world, or of course how it functions!!

I do not claim to be an expert.  I am just sharing what I believe to be God given insights into the true nature of our existence.

[Sebastian Toe]

Not arrogance, but based on the physical impossibility for purely material based entities to perceive and consciously interact with our world, as oppose to physical reaction.

There you go again.
Can't help yourself can you?
It's almost as if you were programmed to respond thay way!!

[torridon]

The existence of human free will

In the sense that is it popularly used, I see no reason to suppose we have to invent new realms of reality in order to account for it.  We can already account for it in terms of psychology and neurophysiology; it is the tension between different levels of cognition.

[ippy]

Not arrogance, but based on the physical impossibility for purely material based entities to perceive and consciously interact with our world, as oppose to physical reaction.

Based on the Mumbo Jumbo of the magical, mystical and superstition based bible, mixed with unfounded arrogance then.

ippy

[ippy]

I do not claim to be an expert.  I am just sharing what I believe to be God given insights into the true nature of our existence.

Now that for you Alan, is an improvement, it must have hurt, now go and have a good rest it'll help you recover.

ippy

[floo]

I do not claim to be an expert.  I am just sharing what I believe to be God given insights into the true nature of our existence.

What YOU believe, being the operative word.

[wigginhall]

I do not claim to be an expert.  I am just sharing what I believe to be God given insights into the true nature of our existence.

That's fair enough.   I'm happy for people to have insights; but if they want to convince others, they have to do more than assert something.   This seems to be all you have.   

[ippy]

I was catching up with some of my favourite pieces of music on 'Spotify' and just finished listening to Whitney Huston, then a bit of Widor's organ music, then I thought how about a bit of Orff, so I went for Orf's Carmina Burana I was enjoying the opening of this piece with the coral and all of that, it then made me think of AB's continual assertivness about his beloved religion and how appropriate it would be if we were able to add sound on to the forum and the opening of Carmina was played in the background as A B did a talk over it with his usual stuff, I have to admit I would enjoy listening to something like that.

Just thought I'd share it with you all it made me smile in a devilish way when I thought of it, (the devil, who said that)?

I know, silly old sod, loosing his marbles.

ippy

[torridon]

Not arrogance, but based on the physical impossibility for purely material based entities to perceive and consciously interact with our world, as oppose to physical reaction.

What makes you think that is impossible ?  You do realise there is no such thing as 'purely material entities' ?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Not arrogance, but based on the physical impossibility for purely material based entities to perceive and consciously interact with our world, as oppose to physical reaction.

What on earth would make you think that that is "physically impossible"?

So far as I can make it out, your reasoning is something like:

1. Monkeys don't build rockets or write symphonies.

2. Laptops are more limited in their abilities than brains.

3. "Free" will feels free to you, therefore...

... "soul"!

Given that pretty much all of logic and evidence is against you, doesn't this all seem just a little bit, well, thin to you?