Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3876673 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23225 on: October 28, 2017, 01:42:54 PM »
Good lad  :D
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23226 on: October 28, 2017, 01:48:30 PM »
The wrongness - as usual - in your latest dreary rant is beyond my patience to skin, gut and bone in detail, so I'll confine myself to the final sentence:
Yes.
it wasn't even an explosion it was 'inflation' and it happened everywhere at the same time and there appears to be no purpose for it other than that is the way it is. We only know that because we are here to observe it

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23227 on: October 28, 2017, 02:03:05 PM »
I see your problem here, Alan, which involves your repeated and spurious use of the word 'meant'.

That's the narcissism and egotism inherent in theism, though, isn't it. The universe was meant to be, typically as somewhere - a stage, an arena - where little old me was meant to be.

There's a fellow called Jonathan Black who writes very long and highly entertaining books full of extremely interesting twaddle for the most part, but he does make one interesting point near the beginning of one of his books: namely, that the essential and fundamental difference between a religious mindset or worldview and what we might call a scientific worldview is in the relationship between matter and mind. The religious view says that mind comes first, typically in the form of an immaterial mind in the form of your bog-standard supernatural theistic deity, which creates a universe of matter and all in it second. On the other hand, the scientific view says that matter comes first - a universe has to exist for there to be minds in - and matter, when it becomes sufficiently complex in its arrangement, gives rise to mind. (As the old saying has it, mind is what the brain does).

As far as I can see all the evidence supports the latter point of view. I don't know of any evidence that supports the first.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23228 on: October 28, 2017, 02:31:35 PM »
see Alan run to find his bible!

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23229 on: October 28, 2017, 02:31:51 PM »
The wrongness - as usual - in your latest dreary rant is beyond my patience to skin, gut and bone in detail, so I'll confine myself to the final sentence:
Yes.
Agreed. I do a lot of scrolling past stuff, perhaps listening to a word or two here and there! :)
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23230 on: October 28, 2017, 02:32:47 PM »
Well, as the first part of AB's latest  proselytizing post has nothing to do with me(not being a God denier) and as the second part just brings to my mind the two words, "cart" and "horse", I'll just go along with Shaker and say "Yes" to the last sentence. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23231 on: October 28, 2017, 02:37:12 PM »
Of all the earthly pleasures which this world has to offer, one thing is absolutely certain – they all come to an end.  But in contrast, there is the unending joy of knowing God’s love – a joy which, once found, will be perceived to transcend even the death of our physical bodies.

The opening post of this thread implies that many of the posters on this forum have no wish to search for and discover the joy of knowing God, but instead seem intent on finding reasons not to believe.  The content of this thread aptly demonstrates the truth of this opening post, showing the intent of posters not just to find fault, but in many cases to ridicule any arguments put forward for the existence of God by trying to equate such belief with magic, leprechauns, pixies etc.

And in denying the evidence for God and the human soul, they also have to deny their own freedom to make conscious choices.  In a Godless, soulless world, every event must have a natural, physical cause which is entirely defined as an unavoidable consequence to all previous events – thus relegating any perception that we have control of our thoughts, words and actions to be an illusion – and everything we do is simply an unavoidable reaction to events.  Yet the very act of trying to deny the evidence for our ability to choose is in itself evidence of our ability to make conscious choices.  As the opening post implies, it is evident that posters are deliberately choosing to find reasons not to believe rather than to search for God.

But once you concede the possibility of consciously driven interaction with this world, it opens up the amazing realization that there is purpose and meaning in everything:

Was light meant to be seen?
Are the differing wavelengths in light meant to be perceived as colour?
Is gravity meant to keep us on the ground?
And is gravity meant to enable the earth to orbit the sun?
Were vegetables and fruit meant to be eaten?
Were beautiful flowers meant to be perceived?
Was the presence of water, oxygen, carbon etc meant to provide the ingredients for life?
Was the enquiring mind of mankind meant to discover the useful properties of such things as electricity, radio waves, metals, silicon, fossil fuels, etc?
And was this enquiring mind also meant to search for and discover God?

Or was it all just an accidental consequence from the lifeless, aimless, Godless, soulless cloud of exploding gas?

Much more likely. One day science may well come up with a credible explanation to explain how everything came into existence. 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23232 on: October 28, 2017, 03:24:08 PM »
AB,

Quote
Was light meant to be seen?
Are the differing wavelengths in light meant to be perceived as colour?
Is gravity meant to keep us on the ground?
And is gravity meant to enable the earth to orbit the sun?
Were vegetables and fruit meant to be eaten?
Were beautiful flowers meant to be perceived?
Was the presence of water, oxygen, carbon etc meant to provide the ingredients for life?
Was the enquiring mind of mankind meant to discover the useful properties of such things as electricity, radio waves, metals, silicon, fossil fuels, etc?
And was this enquiring mind also meant to search for and discover God?

As you have returned to logical error (what makes you think the universe is designed for us rather than that we’re adapted to the universe?) and mindless proselytising, here’s some for you in return:

Were babies meant to dies of brain cancer?

Are villages meant to be washed away by tsunamis?

Are burrowing wasps meant to cause blindness?

Was the holocaust supposed to happen?

Were typhus, cholera and diphtheria meat to cause untold loss and misery?

And was the musical mind meat to look for tap dancing leprechauns for the explanation?

See, once you fall into the idiocy and solipsism of thinking it’s all designed just for little ol' ever so 'umble you, then you don’t get just to ignore the bits that aren’t sugar and spice and all things nice. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23233 on: October 28, 2017, 04:21:06 PM »
Wrong, as usual: the problem is that there are no good reasons to believe in god.
Disagree vis the much misunderstood writings of A.R.I. Stotle, T.A.Q. U.Iness, and N.D.G. Tyson.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23234 on: October 28, 2017, 04:54:42 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Disagree vis the much misunderstood writings of A.R.I. Stotle, T.A.Q. U.Iness, and N.D.G. Tyson.

Given your grotesque misrepresentation of what the third of those three said, perhaps you'd better tell us what you think these misunderstandings to be be rather than just assert their existence?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23235 on: October 28, 2017, 05:13:05 PM »
Vlad,

Given your grotesque misrepresentation of what the third of those three said, perhaps you'd better tell us what you think these misunderstandings to be be rather than just assert their existence?
Don't tell me.........Atheism is now in possession of an age old religious claim and since possession is 9 points of the law it now feels free to give it an antitheist respray and its tough because religion should have stamped its post code.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23236 on: October 28, 2017, 05:30:42 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Don't tell me.........Atheism is now in possession of an age old religious claim and since possession is 9 points of the law it now feels free to give it an antitheist respray and its tough because religion should have stamped its post code.

Did this this car crash of a sentence meant something in your head when you attempted it as a distraction from dealing with your misrepresentation of deGrasse Tyson?

"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23237 on: October 28, 2017, 05:38:24 PM »
Don't tell me.........Atheism is now in possession of an age old religious claim and since possession is 9 points of the law it now feels free to give it an antitheist respray and its tough because religion should have stamped its post code.

...and for those of us whose first language is English?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23238 on: October 28, 2017, 05:40:51 PM »
...and for those of us whose first language is English?
My first language is Guinnish and I haven't got a fecking clue what he is on about!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23239 on: October 28, 2017, 05:47:37 PM »
Seb,

Quote
My first language is Guinnish and I haven't got a fecking clue what he is on about!

Not a problem...

...nor has he  ::)
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23240 on: October 29, 2017, 09:28:35 AM »
Hillside

There is no use turning NDGT undercutting of atheist foundations into some problem on my part.

The world of atheism enjoyed by your self and your wee Wizards is i'm afraid time limited.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23241 on: October 29, 2017, 10:41:16 AM »
Moderator Note a couple of comments have been removed as being a derail of the topic as merely being personal comments on a poster.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23242 on: October 29, 2017, 10:42:10 AM »
Hillside

There is no use turning NDGT undercutting of atheist foundations into some problem on my part.

The world of atheism enjoyed by your self and your wee Wizards is i'm afraid time limited.

You are not making any sense at all. ::)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23243 on: October 29, 2017, 12:48:48 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
There is no use turning NDGT undercutting of atheist foundations into some problem on my part.

It is a problem "on your part" – ie, the problem of your lying about what he said.

Quote
The world of atheism enjoyed by your self and your wee Wizards is i'm afraid time limited.

Only if someone can finally come up with an argument for theism that isn't fallacious. 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 12:54:42 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23244 on: October 29, 2017, 01:45:59 PM »
Vlad talks about undercutting of atheist foundations.   Yeah, Tyson really emphasized the supernatural in his arguments - not.   Still, that's a mere detail for Vlad - to be ignored.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23245 on: October 29, 2017, 02:02:24 PM »
Wiggs,

Quote
Vlad talks about undercutting of atheist foundations.   Yeah, Tyson really emphasized the supernatural in his arguments - not.   Still, that's a mere detail for Vlad - to be ignored.

Actually it's more "lied about" than "ignored" when he insists that NdGT's conjecture and theism are "identical". What NdGT actually said was:

"Whatever that being is, it very well might be able to create a simulation of a universe."

(https://evolutionnews.org/2016/04/neil_degrasse_t_1/)

If we unpack it we get:

Whatever that being is…”. So there's no claim of the divine there – a smart alien would do (of have done) just as well.

…it very well might…”. So it’s just a conjecture – not the certainty of theism.

…be able to create a simulation…”. So not the simulation then, just a simulation sufficient for us to experience.

…of a universe…”. So just a universe, not the universe claimed for the god of theism.

A something that at some time may have created a something we perceive as a universe are all that’s necessary and sufficient for NdGT’s speculation. They’re necessary conditions for theism too, but not by a very long chalk are they sufficient ones. 

If though someone wants to reduce his theism to the conditions required for NdGT’s conjecture that's fine by me, but he'd be an awful long way from Christian (and any other that I'm aware of) theism if a mere speculation about a possibly long gone, localised tinkering engineer is what he actually means by “God”.     


 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 02:29:01 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23246 on: October 29, 2017, 02:48:37 PM »
Vlad talks about undercutting of atheist foundations.   Yeah, Tyson really emphasized the supernatural in his arguments - not.   Still, that's a mere detail for Vlad - to be ignored.
Well The minute you talk about an intelligent designer creating the universe who is independent of it you have discussed the supernatural.

Naturalism though is a methodological or scientific thing.

The question is then is NDGT putting forward a reasonable idea?

Well you guys seem to think so. Dismissing exactly the same argument when it's made by someone you don't approve of isn't reasonable.

Your little 11 year hey day of New Atheism and its fellow travellers has been rung down.

Sorry chaps.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23247 on: October 29, 2017, 02:59:52 PM »


Your little 11 year hey day of New Atheism and its fellow travellers has been rung down.

Sorry chaps.
Let's just say that there is such a thing as New Atheism and also that it has been around for an 11 year hey day and also that it has now died.

Now what?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23248 on: October 29, 2017, 03:02:50 PM »
We could sit around designing video games, and thinking that we're gods. 

Actually, I think the simulated universe idea is bonkers.   But there we are.   You might as well say that time travel will exist in the future, therefore we are surrounded by time travelers in our midst. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23249 on: October 29, 2017, 03:09:24 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Well The minute you talk about an intelligent designer creating the universe who is independent of it you have discussed the supernatural.

Who does that?

Quote
Naturalism though is a methodological or scientific thing.

No, it’s an assumption based on the available evidence.

Quote
The question is then is NDGT putting forward a reasonable idea?

No, it’s just a question. And moreover it’s got nothing to do with someone positing “an intelligent designer creating the universe”.

Quote
Well you guys seem to think so. Dismissing exactly the same argument when it's made by someone you don't approve of isn't reasonable.

Nor is it true. Why do you keep lying about this?

Quote
Your little 11 year hey day of New Atheism and its fellow travellers has been rung down.

There’s nothing new about it, and not until someone finally makes a cogent argument for “God” it hasn’t. 

Quote
Sorry chaps.

You should be.
"Don't make me come down there."

God